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#21 wudewasa

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

Wow, I had to comment on this thread as Penn and Teller once again prove that stereotypes exist for a reason. 

 

I wish that someone would stand up in a town hall meeting and ask MM directly as to why he and his organization drank the Sonoma Aid and fell for Penn and Teller's stunt.

 

Too bad that the squatchopedia was taken down.  Here is a reference to the whole MM hoax-

 

"The hoax involved "the Sonoma video," a recording of a purported Bigfoot sighting in California's Sonoma County in 2005. The video was made by someone calling himself "Mark Nelson," an admitted "amateur naturist." Now naturist was once synonymous with "naturalist," but its more recent meaning is "nudist." Also Nelson said he was a member of a rock band called Total Nutcase. Nevertheless BFRO proclaimed the Sonoma footage to be genuine, and, when it was revealed to be a put-on made by Penn and Teller for their TV show BS! (my editing as to not violate forum rules), BFRO suggested that it was actually Penn and Teller's claim that was bogus! However, when BS! (again my editing because violating forum rules is a bad thing) aired, BFRO removed all references to the video and has never mentioned it again. (See http://www.sasquatch...hp/Sonoma_Video.)"

http://www.centerfor...gfoot_a_howler/


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#22 Old Dog

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:41 PM

So I guess Penn and Teller can no longer rely on their magic act to get attention so they have digressed to insults and condescension.  I liked their magic act, this junk, not so much.


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#23 Mulder

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:03 PM

Yes, known hoaxers. But hoaxed with the intent of exposing the gullibility of some big named BF researchers. And it worked. It was a good thing and should be done more often.

 

Complete and utter...well, to remain compliant with the board I'll say "nonsense"...

 

Deliberately trying to sabotage the research and reputation of others is a cowardly and intellectually despicable act.

 

Saying "it should be done more often" doesn't speak well of one who says such things...



If someone willfully chooses to ignore fact and proof, then they willfully choose ignorance. That makes them intellectually inferior to me and worthy of sympathy.

 

I for one refuse to have any "sympathy" for the willing ignorance of Skeptics.



So I guess Penn and Teller can no longer rely on their magic act to get attention so they have digressed to insults and condescension.  I liked their magic act, this junk, not so much.

 

For some reason, magicians (esp the big names) seem to have a tendency towards becoming a-hats (Randi, Penn & Teller, etc).

 

I think they've spent so many years learning how to deceive (deception is after all the heart of stage magic) that they've become champion-class cynics.


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“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." - Galileo

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#24 gerrykleier

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:18 PM

I remember the hoax pretty well, but had forgotten the 'Mark Nelson' part. Does anybody know if the Showbiz Mark Nelson (ran the Magic Castle) was involved? He had a tie to Professional Magicians and knew Penn and Teller.

 

Or was Mark Nelson a pseudonym (and perhaps a nod to a friend by P & T)?

 

Just a detail that I am curious about.

 

I've always loved their stage show. I saw them in San Francisco's North Beach 30 years ago or so when they were calling themselves The Asparagus Valley Society (or something like that) and again about 4 years ago in Vegas. Great both times. I viewed their hoax as pretty low, but they will never see it that way.

 

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#25 wudewasa

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

No, Penn and Teller showed the bigfoot community that drinking the kool aid leads to public embarrassment.  The term "skeptic" still seems to be an insult on these forums.  "Critical Thinker" is a more accurate term.   Yes they want attention (television shows are about making money) but more importantly, these guys BRING ATTENTION to the fact that when someone accepts evidence as truth without using critical thought, they can be easily duped.  Yes. Penn likes to rake people over the coals and eviscerate them publically, and in the case of the Sonoma stunt, that's a GOOD thing! 

 

Case in point:

 


Edited by wudewasa, 26 April 2013 - 11:47 PM.

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#26 Mulder

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

Wudewasa said:

No, Penn and Teller showed the bigfoot community that drinking the kool aid leads to public embarrassment.


No, it shows that some people will stoop to any depths to sow dissension and play stupid little "gotcha" games to make themselves feel like Big Men...
 

The term "skeptic" still seems to be an insult on these forums.


When Skeptics stop insulting our intelligence with their double-standards, goal moving, never requiring themselves to proffer proof when they demand it continually from Proponents, etc, THEN maybe it will stop being a (well-earned) black mark to be a Skeptic. 
 
 

"Critical Thinker" is a more accurate term.


HAH! REAL "critical thinkers" apply their rules evenly. Skeptics only apply them to non-Skeptics (see above) 
 
 

more importantly, these guys BRING ATTENTION to the fact that when someone accepts evidence as truth without using critical thought


You mean like "Campfire BobH wore a suit at Bluff Creek to help RP hoax the PGF because he said so"? or "Dr Fahrenbach's track size distribution paper is bunk"? Oh! Oh! I know, you're talking about "Every eyewitness that has seen a BF is either too stupid to know it wasn't a BF, hallucinating, or lying!"
  
 

Penn likes to rake people over the coals and eviscerate them publically, and in the case of the Sonoma stunt, that's a GOOD thing!


If you want to look like an honorless, muckraking, intellectually dishonest pot-stirrer maybe...

Edited by Mulder, 27 April 2013 - 12:27 AM.

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“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." - Galileo

"I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled." - Michael Chrichton

"I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough." - Michael Chrichton

#27 WTB1

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:30 AM

As much as you try Mulder....there is no way around this. P & T exposed people who call themselves authorities on BF to be easily fooled. There is simply no way around it. If that makes you angry so be it. Since P & T's video when we see a BF "expert" on TV saying things like, "That's for sure a squatch". Or, "There definitely a Squatch in these woods" we all have proof (remember that word?) via critical thinking and the exposure and outing of so called experts that....well.....um.....no. There probably is not a squatch in those woods.

 

 

Mulder ~ "I for one refuse to have any "sympathy" for the willing ignorance of Skeptics."

 

Do tell! Do tell...what proof of Bigfoot has a so-called skeptic willfully failed to acknowledge? Foot prints? They exist, but there's no proof that BF made them. Hair? It exists, but there's no proof that the hair is from BF. Sightings? They exist but there's no proof they are of real BF's. Video? You get the idea.

 

Where's the body Mulder?????? Where's the DNA Mulder??????????? Where's a skull, foot our collar bone Mulder? Where?????????

 

Please answer soon. I would hate to be willfully ignorant of such proof.


Edited by WTB1, 27 April 2013 - 05:41 AM.

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#28 wudewasa

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

As much as you try Mulder....there is no way around this. P & T exposed people who call themselves authorities on BF to be easily fooled. There is simply no way around it. If that makes you angry so be it. Since P & T's video when we see a BF "expert" on TV saying things like, "That's for sure a squatch". Or, "There definitely a Squatch in these woods" we all have proof (remember that word?) via critical thinking and the exposure and outing of so called experts that....well.....um.....no. There probably is not a squatch in those woods.

 

 

 

MM was the target or "poor victim" of this dastardly media ploy (if not akin to a vulture attracted to a rotting carcass that obviously reeks of hoaxing).  Let's sort things out a bit more, shall we?!

 

The phrase "It's a known fact," is often uttered quite liberally by this zagnut loving fuhrer, who despite his "expert opinion," fell for a simply crafted ruse that made both he and his organization the laughing stock of the bigfoot research community.  He screwed up, and will never live it down, rather than simply saying "Yeah, you got me, ha ha. Now let's move on to the next episode of Finding Bigfoot so I can make money on international television the same way Penn and Teller do."  Remember that in the past, MM has repeatedly been very harsh to people whom he doesn't agree with, if not down right nasty,  So, Penn and Teller are bad guys for behaving in the same manner, but in some folks' eyes, MM gets a free pass to behave any way that he wants to because he believes in bigfoot.

 

The moral of this story is "do whatever you want, just don't make fun of bigfoot or the way that people do bigfoot research."


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#29 norseman

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

The difference between Penn and Teller and a Bf hoaxer, is that Penn and Teller are going to reveal the hoax to you. They are not interested in perpetuating the myth. They are looking to eviscerate it.

Nor are they trying to be "big men".......they have already acheived that status within their respective fields. The show Bullshit doesnt just attack Bigfoot, it attacks religion, gun control, and a whole host of other issues. Penn is a Libertarian and an atheist, so that is the lens the show looks through.

Do i wish they had looked into it a little more in depth? Sure.......but then it wouldnt be the show Bullshit.
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#30 LarryP

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:44 AM


That makes them intellectually inferior to me and worthy of sympathy.

And there you have it !


See: "contempt prior to investigation" and "ignorance" in the Herbert Spencer quote.

Edited by WV FOOTER, 27 April 2013 - 10:51 AM.
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#31 LarryP

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:55 AM

The difference between Penn and Teller and a Bf hoaxer, is that Penn and Teller are going to reveal the hoax to you. They are not interested in perpetuating the myth. They are looking to eviscerate it.

Nor are they trying to be "big men".......they have already acheived that status within their respective fields. The show ******** doesnt just attack Bigfoot, it attacks religion, gun control, and a whole host of other issues. Penn is a Libertarian and an atheist, so that is the lens the show looks through.

Do i wish they had looked into it a little more in depth? Sure.......but then it wouldnt be the show ********.


First and foremost P&T are looking for an obvious Hoaxer in order to make sure that they actually can eviscerate the hoax and the Hoaxer.

Which is why they didn't seek out Jeff Meldrum.

And people who already consider themselves to be big men, can never get enough of doing the things that they believe makes them "big men".

Penn Jillette is just another man who is a legend in his own mind.

Edited by WV FOOTER, 27 April 2013 - 10:48 AM.
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"If I saw someone on the street standing on a soapbox spreading, what I perceive to be nonsense and made up stories as facts, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would go over and share my opinion. To do less is to do a disservice to critically thinking people everywhere." - dmaker

"Being skeptical requires one to question everything, correct?" -Cotter

"Yes, Cotter, but we are also forced to say on topic in a forum. This makes it hard to question "everything" sadly." - dmaker

#32 Jerrymanderer

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:04 AM

^^^^^You can keep repeating your favorite quote like a bumper sticker. The fact is proving a species like bigfoot is relatively easy. Bring in a body or body part. It shouldn't matter if there are people with "contempt prior to investigation".


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#33 LarryP

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:05 AM

^^^^^You can keep repeating your favorite quote like a bumper sticker. The fact is proving a species like bigfoot is relatively easy. Bring in a body or body part. It shouldn't matter if there are people with "contempt prior to investigation".

 

You keep laboring under the delusion that I should somehow feel obligated to provide physical proof to materialists who have clearly shown their contempt towards anything that does not fall within their narrow materialist worldview because they believe themselves to be intellectually superior. 

 

That is not the case.

 

But what is truly funny, is that the actual reasons why it has not been "relatively easy" to bring in a BF body completely blow apart the materialists perception of what constitutes reality.


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"If I saw someone on the street standing on a soapbox spreading, what I perceive to be nonsense and made up stories as facts, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would go over and share my opinion. To do less is to do a disservice to critically thinking people everywhere." - dmaker

"Being skeptical requires one to question everything, correct?" -Cotter

"Yes, Cotter, but we are also forced to say on topic in a forum. This makes it hard to question "everything" sadly." - dmaker

#34 Jerrymanderer

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:13 AM

Again with the "materialism". So is bigfoot a spiritual being?

 

And if you think scientists deny a bigfoot body with shown to them, then you sir suffer a delusion.


Edited by Jerrymanderer, 27 April 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#35 Enkidu

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

Wow, okay, I think we need to lighten up a bit and look at this from P&T's perspective, and that of skeptics like James Randi. Any hoaxer, or someone who perpetuates a hoax for their own financial benefit, is an intolerable and despicable thief who should be treated with nothing but contempt and ridicule. I think they used the same tactics for this exposé that they would have used for any other investigation into potential fraud; bait the water and see who bites.

Face it, not everyone interested in the BF phenomenon is in it for the sense of adventure and discovery. From their reporting, P&T just believe the number who aren't in it for a buck are far out numbered by the charlatans who are.
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#36 wudewasa

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:02 PM

Available in the frozen food isle next to the kool aid popsicles.

 

bigfootmediahoax1a1.jpg

 

 

BTW, here is the actual Sonoma video that MM thought was real-

 


Edited by wudewasa, 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM.

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#37 WTB1

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

Yes, Larry. Those who are willfully ignorant ARE intellectually inferior to I. Get it yet?

 

 

 

EDIT: for grammar.


Edited by WTB1, 27 April 2013 - 07:09 PM.

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"The year of the Sasquatch is upon us" ~Tracker. 2011 (Yet ANOTHER bust)
"The year of the Sasquatch is upon us" ~ Many believers 2012 (Yet ANOTHER bust)
"The year of the Sasquatch is upon us" ~ Many believers 2013 (Yet ANOTHER bust)

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of people who believe in psychic abilities, it is time to pause and reflect.” ~ WTB1

"There are some people that if they don't know, it's okay. All you have to do is prove it to them, not tell them and expect them to take you at your word." ~ WTB1

"Doubt is the uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something. To doubt is to reflect." ~ WTB1

 

 

 


#38 Old Dog

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:31 AM

At this point in time, which name do you think the general public recognizes more,  Matt Moneymaker or Penn Gillette?  


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#39 wudewasa

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

At this point in time, which name do you think the general public recognizes more,  Matt Moneymaker or Penn Gillette?  

 

With this argument, popularity matters more than credibility.  Penn and Teller research their quarry and expose the silliness.  MM embraces delusions and perpetuates them with fantastic claims that cannot be supported with any facts whatsoever. 

 

Both Penn and Teller and MM are entertainers, but their messages are different.  Penn and Teller encourage critical thought and use humor to make their point.  MM lambasts those around him with "my way or the highway" mantras, and demands that his word not be questioned.

 

Then again, it's more about who the public recognizes, as bread and circuses win the day.


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#40 norseman

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

Penn Gillete hands down.
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