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Camera Stops And Starts


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#1 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:12 AM

This thread is about Bill Munns' discovery that, during the filming, Roger had stopped the camera several times...while repositioning himself. It's a very interesting aspect to the film, that has some implications relating to 'real vs. hoax'...that Bill talks about in his Report.


Here is a link to the page of his Report, about the Camera Stops/Starts...

3.2 The Physical film


There are a total of 6 filming sequences. For this Opening Post...I'm including images relating only to the 1st Sequence.
Bill, very kindly, emailed me higher-resolution versions of the Frames that are used in his Report...to work with, and post here. Thanks, Bill.. :)



First off...here is Bill's compilation of the 'Start' and 'Stop' Frames, throughout the Film...


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Here is an excerpt from Bill's report...about the 1st Sequence...

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Here are the 2 Frames...(higher-resolution copies)...for the Opening sequence...


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And, here is an animated-gif of the two Frames...showing the movement of Patty, and how the scenery changes, during the 'Opening Sequence' of filming...


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I aligned the images according to the scene, itself...and not the Film Frame borders...so, due to the large amount of camera movement, from the first to the last frame...only a small portion of the scene was common to both Frames...and is seen in the animation.
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#2 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:25 AM

I short side-trail...here is an animated-gif I made, of the first 3 Frames of the Film....(taken from the compilation image, in the Opening Post)....which also includes the Frame of the Film just before the filming of Patty began...the 'tentpole trees'.


This is to show how, as Bill describes, the first couple of frames of a film appear brighter, as the camera is getting 'up to speed'...(causing a longer 'exposure time')...


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In this version the frames are aligned by the objects in the scene...(rather than by the Film Frame Borders)...

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And....with fade...(and losing the 'tentpole trees')...

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Edited by SweatyYeti, 20 March 2011 - 07:32 AM.

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#3 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:07 AM

Sequence 2...


Here is Bill's description...


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Here are the Start and Stop Frames...

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And...an animated-gif, showing the changes during this filming sequence...


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Here is a Frame, taken from LMS...which is close to the actual End Frame....and has a little clearer view of Patty...


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#4 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:09 AM

The Gap between Sequence 1 and Sequence 2...


This animated-gif combines the 'Stop Frame' of Seq.1....with the 'Start frame' of Seq.2......thus showing how far Patty moved, and how the scenery changed...during the time the camera was turned off...


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#5 bipedalist

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:06 PM

Appreciate your work SwYt and Bill. It's been awhile since I've last reviewed Bill's work and I have to say this stuff seems like 'New' info. to me. Makes sense though and I'm just scratching my head as to how somebody could turn the camera on and off so many times in the hunt. Makes me appreciate the skills and practice of the cameraman a little more I guess.
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#6 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 12:21 PM

Appreciate your work SwYt and Bill. It's been awhile since I've last reviewed Bill's work and I have to say this stuff seems like 'New' info. to me. Makes sense though and I'm just scratching my head as to how somebody could turn the camera on and off so many times in the hunt. Makes me appreciate the skills and practice of the cameraman a little more I guess.



Thanks, bipedalist...and Bill. :) I think there is a lot of significance to this finding of his. We can get into discussing that later on. Before too much discussion gets going, I'd like to get at least 'Sequence 3' posted, and maybe Sequence 4....hopefully by the end of the day.

Edited by SweatyYeti, 20 March 2011 - 12:23 PM.

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#7 Sallaranda

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:49 PM

Wait...I don't quite follow. Does this support the real theory or the hoax theory? And why.
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#8 SweatyYeti

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:55 PM

Wait...I don't quite follow. Does this support the real theory or the hoax theory? And why.



As for myself, I think it supports the 'real' theory....and, strongly, at that.

I'll explain why I think so, within the next day or two. But first, I'd like to get more of the 'Stop/Start Frame' images posted....and then get into discussing the implications of what they show, regarding Roger's movements, and actions.


One significant detail to at least consider, for now, is what happened in the 'Gap', between the end of the 1st Sequence and the start of the 2nd. We know that Roger moved forward, during the time the camera was off....but, did he run towards Patty, and gain any ground on her??

I'm not going to say anything more about that, right now. I just wanted to mention it, to give people something to think about, when looking at these images, and gifs.


I'll get some more images posted later tonight, and tomorrow. :)

Edited by SweatyYeti, 20 March 2011 - 08:58 PM.

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#9 Bill

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 09:03 PM

Sallaranda:

"Wait...I don't quite follow. Does this support the real theory or the hoax theory? And why."

Essentially the analysis of starts, stops, and cameraman motion during filming tells us what the camera operator is doing as he films. I have argued, in my full report description of this, that it supports an idea that the filming was a continuous spontanious event, with the starts and stops reasonable for a person who had his finger on the camera trigger level the whole time, as news people do with they are filing something unexapected, and want to start/stop the camera on a moment's notice. So in my opinion, it supports the film being a real spontanious event, not a deliberate hoaxed or staged event, where there was thoughtful planning before each filmed segment.

But my report has the most thorough explanation of how I concluded this.

Bill
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for my analysis of the PGF, please see http://www.themunnsreport.com/

#10 Sallaranda

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:02 PM

Thanks for the response, Bill. I understand what you're getting at, but for me personally if I was filming something unexpected I'm not so sure I would be stopping and starting the filming. I would want to just constantly film so as to not miss anything...


Anyways, SweatyYeti thanks for all your hard work here and I look forward to seeing the rest of this unfold.
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#11 roguefooter

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:16 PM

Back then it was common practice to take your finger off the trigger to save film, and since there usually wasn't any sound it didn't really matter if scenes were 2-3 seconds long. This is why the old home movies tend to look like editing nightmares- they were usually spontaneously filmed.

A hoax on the other hand is preplanned so there's really no reason to stop filming- everything is premeditated. Although I don't think this is really solid proof of anything I think it does add a little bit of credibility.
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#12 Sallaranda

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 10:25 PM

Back then it was common practice to take your finger off the trigger to save film, and since there usually wasn't any sound it didn't really matter if scenes were 2-3 seconds long. This is why the old home movies tend to look like editing nightmares- they were usually spontaneously filmed.

A hoax on the other hand is preplanned so there's really no reason to stop filming- everything is premeditated. Although I don't think this is really solid proof of anything I think it does add a little bit of credibility.

This clears things up. Thanks.

Edited by Sallaranda, 20 March 2011 - 10:25 PM.

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#13 SweatyYeti

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 04:53 AM

Thanks for the response, Bill. I understand what you're getting at, but for me personally if I was filming something unexpected I'm not so sure I would be stopping and starting the filming. I would want to just constantly film so as to not miss anything...


Anyways, SweatyYeti thanks for all your hard work here and I look forward to seeing the rest of this unfold.



Thanks, Sallandra.. :) ...it's my pleasure. I just wish I had more free-time, to work with these images.
But I'll get 'Sequence 3' posted later on this evening. It's only a 2-Frame sequence...but I'm putting together an animated-gif of Patty walking in 'Sequence 2'...to include in the 'Sequence 3' post. I can get that finished tonight, and I'll post them both.

And...thanks for the explanation, Bill! :)
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#14 SweatyYeti

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 06:37 AM

Sequence 3...



Here is Bill's explanation...


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And...the 2 Frames....(the view from on top of the embankment)...


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An enlargement of the Frame in which the creek is visible...


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I decided not to hold-off on posting this sequence, waiting for the 'Seq. 2' animated-gif. I can post that, later on tonight. In the meantime...I don't have any objections to people discussing this topic. :)
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#15 FuriousGeorge

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:24 AM

It's an interesting aspect of the film that I never saw. I also agree that if he was startled, that reaction at the start makes sense.

Could go either way for me. If it were a hoax, a minor distraction could cause him to release the trigger. Like if he was about to step into the creek or he was swatting away an insect. Things that are not worth putting up with when you can just do another take. But I would expect the camera movements to not be as fluid from frame to frame as they were there if this was the case. He could be just debating if the start of the scene wasn't to his liking.

Does this happen at the end of the clip as well?
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#16 SweatyYeti

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:53 AM

It's an interesting aspect of the film that I never saw. I also agree that if he was startled, that reaction at the start makes sense.

Could go either way for me. If it were a hoax, a minor distraction could cause him to release the trigger. Like if he was about to step into the creek or he was swatting away an insect. Things that are not worth putting up with when you can just do another take. But I would expect the camera movements to not be as fluid from frame to frame as they were there if this was the case. He could be just debating if the start of the scene wasn't to his liking.



Most of the 'Stops' co-incide with Roger repositioning himself, FG....moving either forwards, or sideways..(in one of the last 2 camera stops, he repositioned to his left).



Does this happen at the end of the clip as well?



Sequences 4, 5 and 6 occur after Roger crosses over the creek.
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#17 Gigantofootecus

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 09:09 AM

IMO, it would be very suspicious if there were no start/stops. You have to look thru the viewfinder of the K-100 to frame the shot and I doubt Roger could do this while running to a new position. And Roger didn't have film to burn. I assume there would be a distinctive "blurred" frame at the beginning of each start up, which appears to be the case. Otherwise, a noticeable splice anywhere within the PGF would be a monster gaffe. It would have been wiser to do multiple takes rather than seamlessly splice the PGF together. All the edits would have been Roger's call. Were there any signs of editting in his other footage?
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#18 SweatyYeti

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 09:35 AM

IMO, it would be very suspicious if there were no start/stops. You have to look thru the viewfinder of the K-100 to frame the shot and I doubt Roger could do this while running to a new position.
And Roger didn't have film to burn.



That's true moreso under the 'real' scenario, than it is in the 'hoax' scenario.

Certainly, if you're filming a real 'unproven wild creature', you want to get as much footage of it, as possible....while, if you're filming the subject, as a hoax, it doesn't really matter when the film runs out...at least, after the point where you've gotten your "money shot". In this case...that would be the 'look back', steady portion of the film.
After that, the film could run out at any point, without it raising a red flag, pointing towards a hoax.


Interestingly, though....after the 'look back'...the 'money shot'...Roger still stopped the camera, while he repositioned himself for a better view of Patty. Almost as if he was interested in getting as much footage of Patty, as he possibly could. ;)

Edited by SweatyYeti, 21 March 2011 - 09:36 AM.

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#19 SweetSusiq

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 11:17 AM

Most of the 'Stops' co-incide with Roger repositioning himself, FG....moving either forwards, or sideways..(in one of the last 2 camera stops, he repositioned to his left).






Sequences 4, 5 and 6 occur after Roger crosses over the creek.

Sweaty, What You have posted goes a long way towards proving Patty was the real deal. Thank you! :wub: & hugs...
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#20 Thepattywagon

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 05:24 PM

I recall several past posts questioning whether or not Patty had a buttcrack. Well, just look at the last photo in post #3.
I wonder how Roger got those pillows to fit so uniformly as to give a balanced and natural look to the junk in her trunk.

Sorry for the potential derail, SweatyYeti. Just couldn't help but notice it. As to the starts and stops, I always felt that was one of the strongest pieces of evidence pointing to a spontaneous filming episode. And according to Bill, at least one of the start/stops was probably not intentional, as I remember.
Thanks for this thread, Sweaty!
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