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Operation Persistence


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#1 arizonabigfoot

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

I gather that this is being discussed on the Premium side but I haven't seen anything in the general forum so I've decided to bring it up. Details are starting to come out about "Round 2" of the TBRC's long term study in Area X. There appears to be over 30 witnesses that have experienced sightings, massive amounts of rock throwing, tree knocking, vocalizations and just about every type of interaction you could have with a Wood Ape, short of one attacking someone. So I'm curious, has anyone else had a chance to hear about these amazing interactions, and what are your thoughts?


If you haven't, episodes 38 and 39 of "The Bigfoot Show" podcast go into great detail, and provide some interesting personal accounts.
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#2 BFSleuth

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:32 PM

Yes, this is being discussed in the PMP. In the general forum, in the Media forum, this is being discussed as part of the Bigfoot Show thread. Absolutely fascinating stuff. I strongly encourage folks to join the PMP to take part in some very interesting discussions like this project.
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#3 arizonabigfoot

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:34 PM

Yeah I'm joining as soon as I get my PayPal account back in order. Gotta get on it.
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#4 Scotsquatch

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

A bit off topic (apologies) but there are Bigfoot podcasts? I suppose it's naive of me to be surprised, there are podcasts about everything else after all. Are any of these available on Spreaker or anywhere, or are they strictly on iTunes? Are there radio shows online etc too? Sorry, just still fairly new to this stuff :)
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#5 BFSleuth

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:38 PM

Yes, if you check out the Internet Radio / Podcasts part of the forum there are a number of them listed and discussed. Most I just listen to on my computer, no need for iTunes or anything like that.
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#6 OntarioSquatch

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

From what I've heard, they are loaded and ready to collect a type specimen. In fact they already shot one some time ago, but it got away.
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#7 HOLDMYBEER

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:20 PM

Eleven teams over the course of months... claiming 11+ hard sightings, several dozen rock-throwing episodes, innumerable tree knocks and 'bipedal' sounds.... hundreds of events cataloged during the collection of gigabytes of data, thousands of hours of photographic data.

I look forward to seeing a photograph.
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...If it wasn't documented and the document available for review....it did't happen.

#8 tmi0920

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:47 PM

Soon, I hope for the photos. Will have to check out the podcasts in the meantime!
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#9 notgiganto

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:13 PM

So, I am in the middle of listening to BS ep. 39, and I am struck by something: the TBRC members are pushing the notion that what they are observing strictly exhibits ape behaviors - yet they detail elsewhere how the creatures somehow detected and moved cameras in what I would call an intelligent way. ??? Another detail that strikes me as less than "apelike" is the tossing back and forth of stones with these wild wood apes. Could gorilla or chimp researchers play such a game with those wild apes, or does that hint at something closer to human intelligence? (honest question)
I guess I have to readily admit that I have not been in the "ape" camp for some time, as the bipedal locomotion, human-like morphology (if Patty is any real indication), and continued evasion of detection (even when using cutting edge technology) seems to indicate to me something closer to human (but definitely not modern human)... I am open minded to the reality of these things, whatever that might be, but some aspects of purported behaviors just don't jibe with "ape" in my mind. Perhaps that is due to my own ignorance, as I am certainly NOT a primate specialist or an anthropologist.
They also mentioned "counting up" their human persuers. Does not sound apeish to me, though many of their behaviors are no doubt ape-like.
Hopefully some more knowledgable members here can help me see the errors in my thinking. I can't wait to hear more from the TBRC as far as data that they are NOT talking about, holding back, or yet have yet to collate.

Edited by notgiganto, 27 August 2012 - 07:27 PM.

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I may believe in the possibility of the existence of relict populations of undiscovered hominoid creatures, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck...

I don't think that what 'bigfootery' is searching for is Gigantopithecus, or even a descendant thereof...but I reserve the right to be wrong :)

#10 Mulder

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 07:18 PM

Is this the follow up to "Operation Endurance"? The one where someone nailed one with a shotgun but didn't kill it?
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“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." - Galileo

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"I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough." - Michael Chrichton

#11 Hairy Man

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:03 PM

So, I am in the middle of listening to BS ep. 39, and I am struck by something: the TBRC members are pushing the notion that what they are observing strictly exhibits ape behaviors - yet they detail elsewhere how the creatures somehow detected and moved cameras in what I would call an intelligent way. ??? Another detail that strikes me as less than "apelike" is the tossing back and forth of stones with these wild wood apes. Could gorilla or chimp researchers play such a game with those wild apes, or does that hint at something closer to human intelligence? (honest question)
I guess I have to readily admit that I have not been in the "ape" camp for some time, as the bipedal locomotion, human-like morphology (if Patty is any real indication), and continued evasion of detection (even when using cutting edge technology) seems to indicate to me something closer to human (but definitely not modern human)... I am open minded to the reality of these things, whatever that might be, but some aspects of purported behaviors just don't jibe with "ape" in my mind. Perhaps that is due to my own ignorance, as I am certainly NOT a primate specialist or an anthropologist.
They also mentioned "counting up" their human persuers. Does not sound apeish to me, though many of their behaviors are no doubt ape-like.
Hopefully some more knowledgable members here can help me see the errors in my thinking. I can't wait to hear more from the TBRC as far as data that they are NOT talking about, holding back, or yet have yet to collate.


You always have the most thoughtful posts...

Everyone should read "In the Shadow of Man" by Jane Goodall. Those chimps recognized camera lenses and were disturbed by them...but not by glass bottles stuck in the same holes. Animals are amazing creatures and it's in our nature to want to ascribe human aspects to them. We simply can't help it and I do it all the time with my dogs.

Yes, Mulder..this is a follow up to Operation Endurance. And yes, they took a shot at one last year and did not obtain a specimen.
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#12 bipto

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:40 PM

...yet they detail elsewhere how the creatures somehow detected and moved cameras in what I would call an intelligent way. ???


As Kathy pointed out, other primates can identify cameras as can animals such as wolves. In the case of the wood apes, they have hands and know how to use them. I don't think I'd say they move them in an intelligent way. They mess with them from behind, twisting them and pushing them down when they can. However they do it, they don't like cameras and tend to avoid them. We're still not sure why.

Another detail that strikes me as less than "apelike" is the tossing back and forth of stones with these wild wood apes. Could gorilla or chimp researchers play such a game with those wild apes, or does that hint at something closer to human intelligence? (honest question)


Rock tossing is classic ape behavior. Chimps will throw them back and forth at eachother.

I guess I have to readily admit that I have not been in the "ape" camp for some time, as the bipedal locomotion, human-like morphology (if Patty is any real indication), and continued evasion of detection (even when using cutting edge technology) seems to indicate to me something closer to human (but definitely not modern human)... I am open minded to the reality of these things, whatever that might be, but some aspects of purported behaviors just don't jibe with "ape" in my mind. Perhaps that is due to my own ignorance, as I am certainly NOT a primate specialist or an anthropologist.


Morphology isn't what makes an animal human. They have to exhibit certain traits including the making of purpose-built tools and the exchange of culture. These are really smart primates, but not so much smarter than other large animals of their kind. Chimps, gorillas, and orangs are all very intelligent animals, but none of them are human. The wood apes don't exhibit any human-like traits that we've observed. They exhibit many ape-like traits, though.


They also mentioned "counting up" their human persuers. Does not sound apeish to me, though many of their behaviors are no doubt ape-like.


Again, chimps in particular are very able tacticians. They even go to war with each other. They certainly have the mental faculties to "count up" their adversaries.

I can't wait to hear more from the TBRC as far as data that they are NOT talking about, holding back, or yet have yet to collate.


To be sure, there are things we haven't disclosed, but there is more to come as we continue to examine the data we collected.
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For those whose every typewritten word is directed towards the dearth of evidence, to advocate [against its collection] is much more than passing strange. - WSA

In 2002, I founded the Bigfoot Forums. Now, I'm a member of the North American Wood Ape Conservancy, serving on its board of directors and as its Media and PR Coordinator. In my opinion, The Bigfoot Show is fun to listen to. Most of the time.

#13 orangpendeck

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:47 PM

Just to be clear, so far they have not claimed to have photographic evidence. The photos in question are all the trail cam data that has not been sorted through yet. Brian Brown mentions this on the podcast.

The annoying thing is that I wonder if they will release a photo if they have one. They know the skepticism is so high that releasing even a pretty good photo would be dismissed by most as a hoax.

Could any TBRC members comment on this? Would you release a good photo if you in fact did get one this summer?

Edited by orangpendeck, 27 August 2012 - 08:51 PM.

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#14 VioletX

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:47 PM

Is this the follow up to "Operation Endurance"? The one where someone nailed one with a shotgun but didn't kill it?

This just does not bode well for future relations. If Sasquatch are as intelligent as some say and they realize that the stakes have gone higher and more are out to kill them than before, I wonder what the impact will be. Well, I realize this has been said before...nothing to do now, just see how it all bears out.
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#15 indiefoot

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:53 PM

bipto,
Do you guys have any evidence of them using language?
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#16 Mulder

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 09:12 PM

Yes, Mulder..this is a follow up to Operation Endurance. And yes, they took a shot at one last year and did not obtain a specimen.


Thanks! Didn't they get a suspect blood sample off of a rock that was tested? Did they ever get the results back?
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“In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." - Galileo

"I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled." - Michael Chrichton

"I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough." - Michael Chrichton

#17 bipto

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 09:40 PM

Just to be clear, so far they have not claimed to have photographic evidence. The photos in question are all the trail cam data that has not been sorted through yet. Brian Brown mentions this on the podcast.


No, we do not have any photos that we know of. There is still much data to be reviewed, though.

The annoying thing is that I wonder if they will release a photo if they have one. They know the skepticism is so high that releasing even a pretty good photo would be dismissed by most as a hoax.


I expect that if we do get a photo it will eventualy be released, but only if it's clear and can add to the knowledge base on these animals. We're not interested in producing yet more internet fodder to be chewed over forever. The recently released Oklahoma Prairie photos on our website, for example, which I think are some of the best ever taken were roundly criticized by people on Facebook who obviously knew nothing about thier background and provenance. I was having arguments about whether or not there were still green leaves on trees in OK at that time of year *in that year*, for pete's sake. We do want to share and only withhold information when it's strategically necessary, but it can also be very disheartening.


This just does not bode well for future relations. If Sasquatch are as intelligent as some say and they realize that the stakes have gone higher and more are out to kill them than before, I wonder what the impact will be. Well, I realize this has been said before...nothing to do now, just see how it all bears out.


It's an interesting question, but so far, we have not noticed any change in their behavior because of our past actions. In fact, it's only increased.

Do you guys have any evidence of them using language?


No, though we have heard, on occasion, "Samurai chatter" not unlike the Sierra Sounds. I'm not an expert in such things, but to many of us, it sounds more like an attempt to immitate our speech than speech of their own.

Didn't they get a suspect blood sample off of a rock that was tested? Did they ever get the results back?


There were rocks collected last year with blood on them that we presume came from the animal shot during the Echo Incident, but we have nothing to report at this time regarding those samples. They are in the hands of a capable lab unaffiliated with Melba Ketchum and are being tested.
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For those whose every typewritten word is directed towards the dearth of evidence, to advocate [against its collection] is much more than passing strange. - WSA

In 2002, I founded the Bigfoot Forums. Now, I'm a member of the North American Wood Ape Conservancy, serving on its board of directors and as its Media and PR Coordinator. In my opinion, The Bigfoot Show is fun to listen to. Most of the time.

#18 Cotter

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 07:35 AM

Do you feel that other groups may have been successful in documenting this creature or taking a specimen, but have not yet released the info?
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A message from Peter Byrne....to Pat Beaton:
The last time I met Patterson, at his home in Tampico, WA., the poor fellow was dying, sitting in his back garden on a wooden chair, a veritable skeleton...his fatal illness being Hodgsons disease. He was thoroughly depressed and very angry at the skepticism with which science - and many people - viewed the footage, 
and one of the last things he said to me was..."You know, Peter, we had an opportunity to shoot that thing. Bob had a loaded rifle on it. Maybe that's what we should have done. Then people would believe us."
 

"and incs married to morgan freemans sister.....or something like that  ;)" - Doc Holiday


#19 bipto

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:11 AM

It's possible, I suppose, but it seems like that kind of news would be difficult to keep quiet for too long. The TBRC doesn't think X is unique. In fact, finding out what's so special about that location and what keeps the apes there is part of our mission in the area. Assuming there are more X's out there, it's also logical to assume others have found them and perhaps even had an opportunity to document the species.
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For those whose every typewritten word is directed towards the dearth of evidence, to advocate [against its collection] is much more than passing strange. - WSA

In 2002, I founded the Bigfoot Forums. Now, I'm a member of the North American Wood Ape Conservancy, serving on its board of directors and as its Media and PR Coordinator. In my opinion, The Bigfoot Show is fun to listen to. Most of the time.

#20 Drew

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:47 AM

Bipto, are you coming out and saying that you are 100% sure there is an unclassified species of apes in the Ouachita Uplift area of Ark/Oklahoma?
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