Midnight Owl

Native American understandings

129 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, Night Walker said:

Thank you to those who replied to my post. Your comments were very enlightening…

 

 

On “tripping in the woods”:

 

Norse: Do people walk around in the woods hallicinating cryptic animals into existence? Heck no. Not without the help of magic shrooms!

 

Norse seems to be unaware (or is simply discounting the fact) that people have always claimed to have subjectively seen a wide variety of cryptic animals (amongst other things) that are not objectively there and that these experiences often occur while out in nature. Moreover, certain places do seem to favour certain “cryptic animals”. So, “tripping in the woods” can, does, and will continue to happen without the aid of psychotropic substances…

 

While Norse, personally, may not “walk around in the woods hallucinating cryptic animals” he has never actually seen Bigfoot for himself unlike the author of the article. Some people may not be able to see Bigfoot. So, rather than dismiss these insights out of hand it may well be worth at least considering a different perspective. It can’t hurt, can it?

 

Perception and reality don’t always match up. People CAN BE excellent at observation but, on the flip side, there are times when we can also be very bad at it (while thinking we are still excellent). How does one check the accuracy of any observation? Simply by comparing the subjective claim against the objective evidence and, as we all should know by now, Bigfoot doesn’t cut the mustard. Like it or not, AAWA offers a legitimate Native American’s perspective as to why that is so…

 

 

 

On Alyssa Adisi Waya Alexandria (AAWA) and her article:

 

MIB: It seems consistent with SOME Native American beliefs.

 

Norse: I think its a load of crap sold to people by skeptics and I do not find your post (ie her article) credible

 

SWWASAS pooh-poohed AAWA’s explanation as akin to fantasy (telekinesis) while OS railed against “skeptics” who biasedly overlooked critical evidence in favor of their personally under-questioned theory that the phenomenon is “entirely social” while, ironically, biasedly dismissing the contents of AAWA’a article in favour of his own under-questioned theory…

 

I hate to point out the obvious but AAWA is not a “skeptic” – she is a Native American brought up within her cultural traditions who has seen Bigfoot herself. The view presented is not mine, nor those of anyone connected with the skeptical community, but her own which related her own cultural insights into what Bigfoot actually is (which just so happens to be the topic of this discussion). AAWA is also clearly not saying that Bigfoot was “entirely social”…

 

I’d be interested to learn which Native American beliefs about Bigfoot are inconsistent with AAWA’s? Is anyone able to provide any links or references for further reading or most here simply relating what they believe Native Americans believe or what they once heard a Native American say?

 

 

On footprints, etc:

 

MIB: delusions and illusions do not leave castable footprints nor produce recordable vocalizations.

 

SWWASAS: I have yet to have it explained to me how an encounter that is the result of altered states, imagination, or hallucination can at the same time leave large footprints.     While altered states, imagination, and hallucination is always at play in the human mind, when an event leaves physical traces like footprints,  or broken off trees intended to frighten off the human,   only a ardent skeptic can conclude it is not a physical event.    

 

Norse provided a simple solution: Do they (people) lie or hoax others? Absolutely. MIB acknowledges there is no proof that Bigfoot made any alleged Bigfoot track (since there is no proof of Bigfoot)…

 

OS disagreed, stating that while most tracks CAN be explained by misidentification and hoaxing there are some (perhaps only a small percentage) that seem to defy those mundane explanations. That implies that, whether or not Bigfoot is a real creature, there is and has indeed been a massive social undertaking to fool others (combined with a social willingness to misperceive tracks in the name of Bigfoot) taking place across the globe and over a great span of years by a series of unconnected individuals. In his own unusual way, OS acknowledges the reality of that social phenomenon while at the same time ridiculing it and those nasty “skeptics” who support it. Fortunately for all of us, only OS is ostensibly able to discern the difference due to his secret (or should that be “$ekret”?) research…

 

However, this topic of discussion happens to be “Native American Understandings” so what do Native Americans have to say about Bigfoot tracks, etc.?

 

AAWA: “I can say I have seen many photos, hundreds of them, which are misidentified as Bigfoot or Little People prints when they are Bear and Raccoon. Yet, there are some prints and trackways which leave us scratching our heads. My instinct tells me, there is a real world explanation for them, as well.”

 

She seems to suggest that, in her experience, most supposed Bigfoot tracks are misidentified Bear tracks and racoon tracks misidentified as those of Little People (whatever they are). Of the few prints (again, perhaps only a small percentage) she/they* cannot readily identify they scratch their heads – she/they don’t know and, furthermore, she/they do not jump to conclusions. AAWA does not speculate further than “My instinct tells me, there is a real world explanation for them, as well” -- hinting at human fabrication…

 

* – AAWA uses the terms “us” and “we” which seems to refer to her people rather than just herself.

 

So, it seems that while AAWA would agree with MIB that “something” made them she would perhaps replace MIB’s Something-is-out-there with Something-is-going-on which is not quite the same thing…

 

SWWASAS’s assertion that “only a ardent skeptic can conclude it is not a physical event”, then, is obviously self-serving and incorrect. It is evident that at least some Native Americans have a very different understanding of the nature of the Bigfoot phenomenon to some of the more vocal proponents on this forum. Whether anyone here is actually interested in exactly what Native Americans actually have to say about the nature of Bigfoot, however, appears questionable…

 

But how to objectively identify suspicious prints? Nowadays, it is possible to extract DNA from footprints and other environmental samples (perhaps even the limbs of trees supposedly broken off by Bigfoot). AAWA is right not to speculate on suspicious tracks – if anyone really want to know what made any supposed fresh Bigfoot track they can get it eDNA tested (like the recent SASquatch Nests eDNA Study (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sasquatch-nests-edna-study-science#/). No results as yet but get enough samples tested and over time a clearer picture will surely emerge. The question is whether people really want to know or if they prefer their own particular brand of assumption-passed-off-as-fact…

 

I have not yet been able to find anything documented on Native American understandings of supposed Bigfoot vocalisations…

 

 

 

If Midnight Owl is still following this discussion then I’d be interested to learn his own opinion on AAWA’s insight on Bigfoot. How it is similar or how it differs from that of his own insights and/or perhaps whether it is something that he could/would be interested in following-up on…

 

Of course, we could always invite AAWA here to this forum for further insights and to answer questions…

 

Next week I will provide further other referenced quotes on this subject…

14 hours ago, Night Walker said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting comments but difficult to understand. Please get to the point since your writings seem to go in circles. What do you believe and not believe about Bigfoot? I posted a list of Native American names for Bigfoot two or three pages back. Any comments? 

 

 

Edited by georgerm
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On 11/9/2017 at 2:45 AM, LeafTalker said:

Not seeing you have any kind of overall picture here, Night Walker. 

 

But AAWA sure seems to. She sure seems to think that Bigfoot is not real. "My instinct tells me, there is a real world explanation for [tracks], as well”. Really? What "Native American Understanding" does complete mistrust of evidence point to?

 

AAWA may be Native American, but she's also human, and apparently, she's a human who wants to look like an "advanced", "modern" human. "Today, it is not acceptable to see the two worlds as one; inner and ordinary. We understand the differences." We do?????? Who is the "we" she is talking about? It is not I she's talking about; nor is it the thousands and thousands of people who "understand" that BF is a flesh-and-blood being with abilities that his cousin has forgotten how to use. 

 

By her own admission, AAWA is deviating from Native American understandings, in a way that is completely, head-shakingly sad. 

 

Worse, she is, in a very devious way, trying to look "sympathetic" to the idea of BF, while slamming people who actually know what they're talking about: 

 

"Who would believe that a 1000 lb creature which speaks telepathically, transforms into trees and teleports, actually exists in ordinary reality? Not you; not me. And I am pretty sure even “they” don’t believe it. To tell you, sadly, would end their notoriety and small pocket of fame. Even more sad is their next step; to have conferences based on their experiences or better, based on themselves, and how awesome they are that they can do these things or see these things or hear these things."

 

This person is slamming people for having a "different view" from hers. Slamming someone else is not.....persuasive. I would say, it is the exact opposite of persuasive.   

 

 

Is AAWA really deviating from Native American views or is she simply explaining it for a broader audience? Is she really "slamming" people or is she just telling it as she sees it? Your comprehension of AAWA's article differs significantly from mine but you are, of course, pushing a certain view (i.e. - "BF is a flesh-and-blood being with abilities that his cousin has forgotten how to use") so you NEED to demonize her and misrepresent her views...

 

What "Native American Understanding" does complete mistrust of evidence point to? Perhaps a common sense one - one is which Bigfoot as a solely flesh-and-blood creature is not a part of their understanding. Besides, the article does not claim "complete mistrust of (Bigfoot) evidence" - AAWA: "Yet, there are some prints and trackways which leave us scratching our heads." It is ok to say "I don't know", you know. Perhaps falsely attributing things to Bigfoot (eg footprints, broken foliage), rather than basic skepticism, is the real problem...

 

We should invite AAWA here to clarify her views, yes?

 

 

On 11/9/2017 at 7:48 AM, georgerm said:

Interesting comments but difficult to understand. Please get to the point since your writings seem to go in circles. What do you believe and not believe about Bigfoot? I posted a list of Native American names for Bigfoot two or three pages back. Any comments? 

 

 

The point is the title of this thread (i.e. the "overall picture") is: Native American Understandings". It is not about what I think and it seems to differ greatly from the supposed  thousands and thousands of people who "understand" that BF is a flesh-and-blood being with abilities that his cousin has forgotten how to use.... 

 

The list you provided is great for what it is - a list of Native American names attributed to Bigfoot originally compiled by Kyle Mizokami, Henry Franzoni, Jeff Glickman without references and posted on the nativevillage.org website without any further information...

 

___

 

Quotes from “In the Spirit of Crazy Horse” by Peter Matthiessen (1983)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Spirit_of_Crazy_Horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Matthiessen


My travels with Indians began some years ago with the discovery that most traditional communities in North America know of a messenger who appears in evil times as a warning from the Creator that man’s disrespect for His sacred instructions has upset the harmony and balance of existence; some say that the messenger comes in sign if a great destroying fire that will purify the world of the disruption and pollution of earth, air, water, and all living things. He has strong spirit powers and sometimes takes the form of a huge hairy man; in recent years this primordial being has appeared near Indian communities from the northern Plains states to far northern Alberta and throughout the Pacific Northwest.

 

In 1976, an Indian in spiritual training took me to Hopi, where traditional leaders told us more about this being. Over several years, we visited the elders in many remote canyons of the West, and eventually I travelled on my own, from the Everglades and the Blue Ridge Mountains north to Hudson Bay and from the St. Lawrence westward to Vancouver Island. Along the way I learned a little of the Indians’ identity with land and life (very different from our “environmental” understanding) and shared a little of their long sadness about the theft and ruin of ancestral lands—one reason, they felt, why That-One-You-Are-Speaking-About had reappeared… (pg xxiii)

___

 

“There’s a lot going on up in that country now,” said Archie Fire, referring not only to the threat to the Great Plains from widespread mining but to recent appearances of the big hairy man at Little Eagle, on the Standing Rock Reservation, who came in sign, some people said, of those days at the world’s end “when the moon will turn red and the sun will turn blue” and the Lakota people will resume their place at the centre of existence. (pg xxv-xxvi)

___

 

Turtle Mountain was among the many Indian communities that had been visited in recent years by the “rugaru,” as the Ojibwa call the hairy man who appears in symptom of danger or psychic disruption in the community. Mary’s son Richard talked a little about the appearance of these beings in recent years to Lakota people at Little Eagle, South Dakota. “There were just too many sightings down there to ignore. I mean, a lot of people saw it. Around here, we didn’t have very many reports; most of them were right here where we live now.” He waved his hand to indicate the woods outside, where I camped that night along the lake edge. (pg. xxvii)

___

 

A few weeks before, the big, hairy man had appeared in Little Eagle for the third straight year, and more than forty people had seen him. “I think that the Big Man is a kind of husband of Unk-ksa, the Earth, who is wise in the way of anything with its own natural wisdom. Sometimes we say that this One is a big reptile from the ancient times, who can take a big, hairy form; I also think he can change into a coyote. His is very powerful. Some of the people who saw him did not respect what they were seeing, they did not honor him, and they are already gone.” (pg. xxix-xxx)

___

“This nation,” he said, and stopped to glare at me. “This nation—I can’t say my nation, because they stole it away from me.” He waved his arm in sudden anger. “They cheated and lied, and broke every treaty, even the sacred treaty that protected the Black Hills.” The medicine man subsided suddenly and became silent, composing himself.

 

“We’ve come to an age when we should know better what we are doing.” Pete Catches resumed softly, in a silence that followed some meditations on the Big Man, who was trying to save mankind, he said, from the great cataclysm the Indian people knew was coming. “We must now try to understand what is wrong with us, why we have to tamper with and change the forests and the land. We have done this too long—not us, but the white man. Let’s not walk on the moon, then fail to understand what this Creation is all about. This is life, this is beautiful, everything is as the way it should be.” (pg. xxxviii)

___

 

On the early morning of June 25, Jean Bordeaux, Norman Brown, and Jimmy Zimmerman were sitting up late, down by the creek. “Maybe around three or four o’clock,” Jean says, “not long before the sun, we heard something very big walking in the creek. It wasn’t any animal, either, and it wasn’t like somebody tossing in big rocks; it was plunk-plunk-plunk, like that, big steady steps. Zimmerman was so scared he just ran off, he wanted to wake up Joe, because him and Joe was living in one tent. Norman Brown said it was the Big Man, and that his people over in Arizona knew all about it, but we were all too scared to go down there and look.” (pg. 149)

___

 

I told Sam about the big footsteps in the creek heard on the night before the shoot-out by Jean Bordeaux and Jimmy Zimmerman and Norman Brown, and he nodded, saying, “That was a sign, a warning.”

 

“There is your Big Man, standing there, ever waiting, ever present, like the coming of a new day,” Pete Catches told me two years earlier, here on Pine Ridge. “He is both spirit and real being”—he had slapped the iron of his cot for emphasis—“but he can also glide through the forest, like a moose with big antlers, as if the trees weren’t there. At Little Eagle, all those people came, and they went out with rifles and long scopes, and they couldn’t see him, but all those other people at the bonfire, he came up close to them, they smelled him, heard him breathing; and when they tried to get too close, he went away. He didn’t harm no one; I know him as my brother. I wanted to live over there at Little Eagle, go out by myself where he was last seen, and come in contact with him. I want him to touch me, just a touch, a blessing, something I could bring home eo my sons and grandchildren, that I was there, that I approached him, and he touched me.

 

“It doesn’t matter what you call him; he has many names. I call him Brother, Ci-e, and that’s what the Old People would call him, too. We know that he was here with us for a long time; we are fortunate to see him in our generation. We may not see him again for many generations. But he will come back, just when the next Ice Age comes into being.” (pg. 555)

___

 

More next week...

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Um, yes, she is slamming people. She doesn't like what some are saying, so she accuses them of lying about something she doesn't like ("I am pretty sure even they don't believe it"), for the purpose of gaining "notoriety" and "fame".

 

Did you not read the text you posted?

 

Everyone can see what she said. Her views are perfectly clear. What she's doing doesn't need "clarification". 

 

Neither do your views need clarification.

 

Good luck! You're gonna need it.

 

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Yeah, well, American Indians like stories, it was all the entertainment we had for a long time, so don't go trying to look for proof of Bigfoot in them. Most of these stories are just that, stories. That doesn't mean ignore them, just remember it's often hard to tell where truth ends and myth begins. When it comes to Bigfoot, Indians of the past had virtually the same experience people do today, quick fleeting glimpses of a strange creature and the people try to figure out just what in the heck it is.

 

Here's a link to a site about some of these stories.

 

http://www.native-languages.org/monsters.htm

Edited by Rockape
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On 11/13/2017 at 3:06 PM, LeafTalker said:

Um, yes, she is slamming people. She doesn't like what some are saying, so she accuses them of lying about something she doesn't like ("I am pretty sure even they don't believe it"), for the purpose of gaining "notoriety" and "fame".

 

Did you not read the text you posted?

 

Everyone can see what she said. Her views are perfectly clear. What she's doing doesn't need "clarification". 

 

Neither do your views need clarification.

 

Good luck! You're gonna need it.

 

 

You may claim to see it clearly but you are clearly incorrect, LT...

 

The full quote from AAWA you are referring to is: Who would believe that a 1000 lb creature which speaks telepathically, transforms into trees and teleports, actually exists in ordinary reality? Not you; not me. And I am pretty sure even “they” don’t believe it. To tell you, sadly, would end their notoriety and small pocket of fame.

 

 

I can see how AAWA’s comments could offend you if you believed Bigfoot was a 1000lb telepathic creature that can teleport and transform into trees. Do you or are you just being precious? If you truly cannot understand why “regular folk” find it hard to believe what some people profess to believe about Bigfoot then there’s not much I can say to help…

 

 

Aside from doubting the sincerity of telepathic-teleporting-transformer-Bigfoot proponents, AAWA does not question the sincerity of people who claim to have seen Bigfoot and certainly does not call them “liars”. AAWA explains that because of the reality and power of encountering Bigfoot, the experience is (quite understandably) misunderstood…

 

 

I will say that I’m a bit surprised to the negative reaction to this article. There are plenty here who claim to know, either via their own experience or their research, to “know” what Bigfoot is and are quick to dismiss anything that threatens their claim to expertise (like AAWA’s article). Yet not one can actually support their claim with anything objective. Maybe AAWA can. Why not? After all, it accounts for both what was seen/experienced and why there is no objective evidence. This is not an “its-just-all-in-your-head” skeptical dismissal, this is an affirmation of the reality of the phenomenon from someone with experience and who has access to traditional knowledge. Best of all, perhaps AAWA’s claims can be tested for oneself…

 

 

I’ll make contact with AAWA in the new year and ask if she’d like to join this forum to address those of us with questions in this particular thread. Are there any here who haven’t commented yet who might be interested in that or would I just be wasting my time?

Edited by Night Walker
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One who has had experience with this creature I can say is that AAWA is just another opinion on what they perceive them to not be. NA clearly calls them spirits of the forest as in the way they approach us as Humans.  Can we ever confirm them to be flesh and blood ? maybe But if they live in between worlds  as in flesh and blood and the spirit world,  Then How will we ever confirm their reality to this world.  One cannot change what has been experienced  and deny it's reality. It has to be " tested for one self " in order to understand that it is a reality based on truth.     

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9 hours ago, Night Walker said:

I’ll make contact with AAWA in the new year and ask if she’d like to join this forum to address those of us with questions in this particular thread.

It's a great idea!

 

And after that, you can bring in a doctor to talk about the health benefits of smoking, and then maybe a Bangladeshi child to tell us how much fun it is to work in a shoe factory.

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The way I look at BF related to spirit creatures,  is that mankind has throughout it's history tagged what is not understood with mythological properties when understanding fails.      Perhaps that is what is going on with BF.    Certainly we know little about them.    But like our ancient ancestors when we observe something not understandable,  we are left with that or using mythology or spiritual explanations just to try and make sense of what is observed.    Lack of understanding of physical events has always thrown humans into clutching the spiritual or mythological.      That seems to be how our brain works when encountering explainable (by our understanding) events.      Look at how many thousands of years we assumed that the sun orbited the earth because that was what we seemed to see.    That changed when alternatives were proposed by science.       But in defense of the paranormal,  science is on a crash course with it.    Quantum theory is not well understood, even by it's discoverer, and some aspects defy logic.    An object knows when it is being observed?   Particles can be at many places at once and only are one place when observed ?       Linked particles can communicate with each other at speeds greater than light?    In other fields,   scientific testing of the human mind is revealing paranormal abilities once thought myth or work of performing hoaxers.  .    .   This stuff is pretty far out yet present science accepts it without understanding.     Is that where we are with BF?   

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I'm sure it's somewhat off-topic, but I recently picked up a great book that I hadn't known about on a discount table, very informative.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Bigfoot-Sasquatch-Resurgence-American-Legends-ebook/dp/B01N5JD7Z0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515445434&sr=8-1&keywords=leon+pfaller

 

I appreciated the interesting blog posted by Night Walker, although it seems the post in question was removed from it. When I read it, I thought that perhaps the writer hasn't had much real experience with the creatures, thus preferring her spiritual interpretation, but I think her view is incomplete. I believe she was a speaker at one of Matt Johnson's conferences maybe a couple years ago, and not surprisingly, think I detect criticism of such in the quote posted by LeafTalker. Hopefully, she hadn't conflated his scene with everyone who takes an interest.

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