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Bill

Thoughts About Long's Book, " Making Of Bigfoot "

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Bill

Kit:

"If you really are bout the truth, Bill, you may find yourself in a couple of months fallen to the dark side and getting on board with me to the dismay and broiling of your fans. What do you want more? Fans or truth? Is wisdom stronger than vanity?"

I'll go with truth, every time. I've always said, and sincerely felt, that when a person strives to win, at all cost, they often lose the truth, and have nothing, but the person who strives to truly understand will win, whether they prove their original expectation right or wrong, becuase they have arrived at a truth they can rely upon for all future accomplishment.

As to Long's book, I offered thoughts that struck me as odd or curious, but I still haven't made any final judgment on it. Long ways to go, many chapters to read, before I can make any summation of judgment.

:)

Bill

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SweatyYeti

kitakaze wrote:

So let Bigfooters think I am all words and words and word. That's fine. I'll write more words and words.

When the hammer falls, I promise you, there will be a storm of words from every corner.

Yeah, I think you're all words, kit. :) All 'Blow' and no 'Show'.

That's why twice you've failed to answer this question...

Again...

And not ONE key body measurement, that supports his (Bob's) story. Isn't that true?

Measurements are all about 'show'....and you're afraid to take pictures of Bob, in an attempt to show that certain key body dimensions of his can, and do, equal Patty's.

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kitakaze

Kit:

"If you really are bout the truth, Bill, you may find yourself in a couple of months fallen to the dark side and getting on board with me to the dismay and broiling of your fans. What do you want more? Fans or truth? Is wisdom stronger than vanity?"

I'll go with truth, every time. I've always said, and sincerely felt, that when a person strives to win, at all cost, they often lose the truth, and have nothing, but the person who strives to truly understand will win, whether they prove their original expectation right or wrong, becuase they have arrived at a truth they can rely upon for all future accomplishment.

As to Long's book, I offered thoughts that struck me as odd or curious, but I still haven't made any final judgment on it. Long ways to go, many chapters to read, before I can make any summation of judgment.

:)

Bill

Excellent. A nice concise and pure reply to my big rambling post. We know it is not rambling, but it does look that way to others. I will never presume to be your teacher. If we are Star Wars than you would be closer to Palpatine and me closer to Anakin. It's a stupid metaphor and I use it as much for fun as anything. Learning the truth is not the dark side, but giving up on belief seems that way to many people.

You and I have had completely different approaches. Yours: focus solely on the film. Mine: go after the people that were there. In both cases it brought us next to the very people at the center. You to BG and Patricia, me to BH and those connected to him.

I have a massive edge on you right now that you do not know about. There are extremely important things I have discovered, some through effort some through luck, but what I have found is the end of the rainbow. If your tinkering and numbers and sun dials leads you to think you've solved the mystery of the PGF, all my congratulations to you. You may think I am seeking to win. When you come to where I am, you will realize what it really means and how the desire to win vs the truth is futile.

You may achieve convincing the choir you were right all along, but what kind of achievement is that? You convinced Bigfooters that the PGF is really Bigfoot. You've done that countless times over already. Try convincing the American Natural History Museum and then I'll jump up and clap. I am saying nothing short of a dead bigfoot that looks reasonably like Patty, or clear footage of good provenance of a living one, will sway science to your side.

What do I need? What is the only thing Bigfooters will accept? The answer is simple and stated to me a million times over: The suit or a confession. I aim for no less than smack solid hammer dropping truth. It does exist. Is it the suit? A confession? Something else no one thought of? Some combination of all or part of those? I'll never tell until the time is right. I'm trying to make it sooner than later, but Bigfoot is not going to take over other priorities in my life like my son and my music.

I will give you tips and bits along the way, but I won't spell anything out for you. For now I just have the following to ask...

If you were to on your own or through me discover the truth of the PGF and that the truth is that sadly, it is indeed a hoax, and it was up to you to break it to all the Bigfooters who adore their champion of Patty, how would you do it? Would you do it in exquisitely detailed 12 part in depth coverage or would it be something more concise?

Would you think it kinder not to burst the bubbles? The truth will set you free, but how about the truth for a throng of broken-hearted and angry disillusioned Bigfooters? They know your name. Some of them have your phone number. Some over here have branded you a traitor and are banding together against you. How does Bill Munns deal with a livid Bobo or Yams? I would adore you being right and me being wrong. I would champion it with applomb. How would you take on the bursting of all your fans bubbles?

Edited by kitakaze

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Bill

Kit:

"You and I have had completely different approaches. Yours: focus solely on the film. Mine: go after the people that were there."

I'd describe it differently. I would say you are focusing on intent (to hoax) and I'm focusing on capacity (to be hoax or something real)

I'd have no qualms about calling it a hoax if I could sincerely see one, in terms of capacity to accomplish, and making a suit that could do what I see. I just can't see one, and no other makeup artist, who ever commented on Patty, has offered an explanation of building a suit that does what i see, so they haven't been any help in solving this mystery. And they won't agree to a panel discussion in a makeup artist trade show as I proposed, to discuss that if its a suit, how was it accomplished.

Anyways, I have no hesitation about saying something that'll be unpopular with some factions. And I think the truth is more bizarre than anything we're discussing now. But I can't prove it yet.

:)

Bill

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kitakaze
Yeah, I think you're all words, kit. :) All 'Blow' and no 'Show'.

That's why twice you've failed to answer this question...

Measurements are all about 'show'....and you're afraid to take pictures of Bob, in an attempt to show that certain key body dimensions of his can, and do, equal Patty's.

I respect the roof I am under too much to pick up old baggage or derail a thread with you. Remember all those skeletons with all the bone measurements and ratios? That is where I answered your questions a dozen times over.

Some people simply do not have the ears to hear for belief has made them deaf. They do not have the eyes to see that people do not see as they see. I could take this thread for a muck in the mud with you, but spinning wheels are abhorent to me and that's all we get from you.

Where is your copy of Long's book and if you don't have it, why not? That is a discussion for this thread.

Also, if I had the truth of the PGF and sadly it is opposite of your current convictions, what would you do? Would you thank me? Would you begrudge me all the effort and work I went to? Or would you be to proud for that? How would SweatyYeti handle having his bubble burst? I would eat fried crow with jalapeños and put it on Youtube and in a film. Fanaticism is not what drives me, but a hunger for knowledge. If a hunger for knowledge is what drives you, why haven't you gotten out of your seat and gone to the book store or library or even just clicked over to Amazon and let your fingers do the walking so you might actually have knowledge of what Bob Heironimus or Bob Gimlin has said?

If you have a strong hunger for knowledge rather than fanatical belief, why would you leave it to others to get the information? This thread is about greg Long's book. If you can't discuss the topic, why are you here? Hunger for knowledge or fanatical belief? Something else? Teach me. I'm hungry for knowledge.

Edited by kitakaze

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Thepattywagon

Kitakaze,

If the PGF is somehow proven to have been hoaxed, it is completely independent of the Bigfoot mystery as a whole, and would not provide a scintilla of proof that they don't exist. The reason being, there are far too many who profess to have had encounters with the creatures, and/or come across evidence to support their existence.

The film and its story (stories) and the question of whether or not BF exists are two separate subjects. You, however, make it seem as though proving the film a hoax would invalidate BF's existence, which it would not.

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Guest Spazmo

I respect the roof I am under too much to pick up old baggage or derail a thread with you. Remember all those skeletons with all the bone measurements and ratios? That is where I answered your questions a dozen times over.

Some people simply do not have the ears to hear for belief has made them deaf. They do not have the eyes to see that people do not see as they see. I could take this thread for a muck in the mud with you, but spinning wheels are abhorent to me and that's all we get from you.

Where is your copy of Long's book and if you don't have it, why not? That is a discussion for this thread.

Also, if I had the truth of the PGF and sadly it is opposite of your current convictions, what would you do? Would you thank me? Would you begrudge me all the effort and work I went to? Or would you be to proud for that? How would SweatyYeti handle having his bubble burst? I would eat fried crow with jalapeños and put it on Youtube and in a film. Fanaticism is not what drives me, but a hunger for knowledge. If a hunger for knowledge is what drives you, why haven't you gotten out of your seat and gone to the book store or library or even just clicked over to Amazon and let your fingers do the walking so you might actually have knowledge of what Bob Heironimus or Bob Gimlin has said?

If you have a strong hunger for knowledge rather than fanatical belief, why would you leave it to others to get the information? This thread is about greg Long's book. If you can't discuss the topic, why are you here? Hunger for knowledge or fanatical belief? Something else? Teach me. I'm hungry for knowledge.

Yes, it is. So why all the preaching?

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Guest

Just wanted to say, I have been exposed today to two of the most grotesquely and unnecessarily verbose, inane, self-aggrandizing and ultimately patronizing posts I have ever read, here or on any other site - and that is saying something given where I choose to spend some of my time.

Bill has the patience of Job and is far more forgiving than me, kudo's to you man.

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Bill

infoman:

I just keep my eye on "the big picture" and realize how transiant these forum activities can be, althought there are occasional postings of wonderful content to save and learn from. The big picture is solving the PGF mystery.

:)

Bill

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Guest

FWIW Bill, I believe your work on the PGF has already added to the big picture in immeasurable ways by providing a much needed perspective from someone within the effects/costume industry, and who has specific and personal contacts that include some of the very names that have been whispered as having been 'involved' (if the hoax had Hollywood help as some state, in conflict with other hoax theories - sometimes also espoused by the same person - confusing I know, but consistency is not a strongpoint for many). That alone is priceless.

Your work with the digital site model, and now focusing on the mechanics of the making of the film (camera, lens, etc.) are amazing in terms of attention to detail and careful approach - very impressive, and ultimately will prove equally as invaluable in determining the actual size of the subject.

Also, as you work through the content you have captured from the film you continue to find new details that would have required such detailed anatomical comprehension and nuance in the construction of a suit or when compared to real flesh-and-blood animals (including us) that it has been, on several occasions, jaw-dropping for me.

And lastly, when you focus on attempting to recreate the suit using period available materials I think we will, hopefully be able to synthesize a cohesive 'big picture' that open-minded skeptics will find compelling that there is no rational or reasonable combination of hoax story elements that adequately explain what is captured on the film.

As in politics, you can tell what people find threatening based on where they focus their energy - showing the PGF to be a hoax (the best ever, or worst ever depending on who you talk to, and what day you talk to them) is the Holy Grail to many skeptics. Although the film has had and continues to have several effective champions, when the dust eventually settles I believe it will be your work that is the most definitive for a 'pro real animal' determination.

My hat is off to you.

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kitakaze

Just wanted to say, I have been exposed today to two of the most grotesquely and unnecessarily verbose, inane, self-aggrandizing and ultimately patronizing posts I have ever read, here or on any other site - and that is saying something given where I choose to spend some of my time.

Bill has the patience of Job and is far more forgiving than me, kudo's to you man.

Infoman, I welcome you to think I am as verbose and self-aggrandizing as you like. It rain on a duck to me. I enjoy some of your posts from what I have read. I've hit the green on a few that were especially well written and argued. Information is the key and as your handle shows, that is something important to you. Some people have more information than others and I won't feign some fake modesty and pretend something that isn't true. I have more information about the truth of the PGF than you do and I don't think I am a superior person because of it. I have just been committed in a different way than some others are. I respect Bill very much and I understand his approach. Bill wants to see the bigger picture so I applaud him for finally getting into the bigger picture and not focusing just on the film. It's a philosophy of investigation. Bill thinks he's close to proving a real Bigfoot. I am quite certain of the opposite. I know things Bill does not and he know things I do not. I think if Bill knew what I do, it would be quite different, but the matter is not so simple that I can just blurt it out. There are far bigger things at play.

Are you pursuing an interest on the Internet? That's great. My friend and fellow islander Gigantofootecus does the same and he has done a mountain of work on the PGF. What he will not do is take it higher than a personal fun hobby and off the Internet and I don't blame him. He has his priorities and they're smart ones. Are you doing a hobby on the Internet? That's great, too. I am not looking down on you, but the truth is I am doing more than a hobby on the Internet. If you think the PGF controversy can be solved by numbers and sun dials, I welcome you to try. I don't expect the American Natural History Museum will so much as rais an eyebrow. I think it takes more. I write and I do. That is what an investigative journalist does, and that is what I am trying to do.

I welcome your criticism, but I have a strong interest in Bill getting deep into Long's book. I will be here discussing it and I welcome you too.

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kitakaze

Kitakaze,

If the PGF is somehow proven to have been hoaxed, it is completely independent of the Bigfoot mystery as a whole, and would not provide a scintilla of proof that they don't exist. The reason being, there are far too many who profess to have had encounters with the creatures, and/or come across evidence to support their existence.

The film and its story (stories) and the question of whether or not BF exists are two separate subjects. You, however, make it seem as though proving the film a hoax would invalidate BF's existence, which it would not.

TPW, can you show me evidence of this - that I make it seem ending the PGF controversy would invalidate Bigfoot on the whole? The reason I ask is because I keep on over and over strongly emphasizing to the BF community that I have no such intention and that I have no desire to kill Bigfoot. It really has been said by me countelss times. See just about every conversation I have had with Kerchak.

Please don't make me something I am not, particularly when I try so hard not to be misinterpreted or two-dimensionalized.

The PGF being shown a hoax does not kill Bigfoot. The belief will continue and it is little and less to me. Specific claims are my interest and that is exactly what the PGF is. I hope we don't derail this discussion with me. Let's talk about Long's book and Munns reading it.

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Guest Spazmo

"I am not looking down on you..."

It certainly sounds this way. Him, me, Bill and everyone else here.

Infoman, I welcome you to think I am as verbose and self-aggrandizing as you like. It rain on a duck to me. I enjoy some of your posts from what I have read. I've hit the green on a few that were especially well written and argued. Information is the key and as your handle shows, that is something important to you. Some people have more information than others and I won't feign some fake modesty and pretend something that isn't true. I have more information about the truth of the PGF than you do and I don't think I am a superior person because of it. I have just been committed in a different way than some others are. I respect Bill very much and I understand his approach. Bill wants to see the bigger picture so I applaud him for finally getting into the bigger picture and not focusing just on the film. It's a philosophy of investigation. Bill thinks he's close to proving a real Bigfoot. I am quite certain of the opposite. I know things Bill does not and he know things I do not. I think if Bill knew what I do, it would be quite different, but the matter is not so simple that I can just blurt it out. There are far bigger things at play.

Are you pursuing an interest on the Internet? That's great. My friend and fellow islander Gigantofootecus does the same and he has done a mountain of work on the PGF. What he will not do is take it higher than a personal fun hobby and off the Internet and I don't blame him. He has his priorities and they're smart ones. Are you doing a hobby on the Internet? That's great, too. I am not looking down on you, but the truth is I am doing more than a hobby on the Internet. If you think the PGF controversy can be solved by numbers and sun dials, I welcome you to try. I don't expect the American Natural History Museum will so much as rais an eyebrow. I think it takes more. I write and I do. That is what an investigative journalist does, and that is what I am trying to do.

I welcome your criticism, but I have a strong interest in Bill getting deep into Long's book. I will be here discussing it and I welcome you too.

And I believe this makes it "three".

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Guest

And I think the truth is more bizarre than anything we're discussing now. But I can't prove it yet.

Bill, that's not fair, teasing us like that...I know you won't release the findings before they're properly backed up, but **** man!

:)

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kitakaze
And lastly, when you focus on attempting to recreate the suit using period available materials I think we will, hopefully be able to synthesize a cohesive 'big picture' that open-minded skeptics will find compelling that there is no rational or reasonable combination of hoax story elements that adequately explain what is captured on the film.

IM, I applaud Bill's effort to do this same thing that I am trying to do so much that I we have discussed getting funding for Bill and including the effort in my film. I even went so far as to invite Bill to a collaboration and to accept Bill's invitation to try wearing a suit created by him myself. Bill also invited me to help advise the creation as I would for Morris. Skeptics told me it was a trap. I am fine with it and I think it would be interesting. Bill is not my enemy, he is my colleague in the PGF mystery investigation. You can think he is far above me and you are welcome to.

If I am not an open-minded skeptic, why would I work with Bill rather than against him? Do you realize some of the people I am dealing with have more money than God, so to speak, and are quite capable of funding Bill? Neither of us fear the truth, so I wonder how much of the bigger picture you have really exposed yourself to.

So am I arrogant and self-aggrandizing to go much farther than Internet discussion?

As in politics, you can tell what people find threatening based on where they focus their energy - showing the PGF to be a hoax (the best ever, or worst ever depending on who you talk to, and what day you talk to them) is the Holy Grail to many skeptics. Although the film has had and continues to have several effective champions, when the dust eventually settles I believe it will be your work that is the most definitive for a 'pro real animal' determination.

My hat is off to you.

I promise you this - I have not one atom of fear in me about Patty being a real Bigfoot. If you don't know that by now, infoman, you need more info.

Let's prove this. I have already proposed various wagers and stated about the literal crow eating for my film. I like people showing their convictions. You feel Bill will be able to make the most definitive "pro real animal" determination.

Let's set it out.

How do we define the most definitive determination? Accepted by Bigfooters on the Internet? I have a better idea. Let's choose together one or more institutions of science. Let's not spin our wheels on the Internet. I like change where some people prefer a chat on the computer. You and me and Bill, let's agree upon some institutions to present his "most definitive determination" and see how the scientists feel about Bill's determination. Then we will see how you and Bill and me feel about that determination. Then we can use that as a lens for making a determination about something we know for real exists - people who are into Bigfoot. If infoman and Bill Munns poo poo a consensus determination by science that a body is needed to say for certain if the film shows a Bigfoot, what will that say do you think?

Something definitive about science, something definitive about people who are into Bigfoot, or something involving both? I like reality. The real world I live in doesn't accept dubious films from dubious sources as strong evidence for giant land mammals we somehow missed in our own back yards.

Should science lower its standards for Bigfoot? If so, why?

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