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Roger Patterson The Hoaxee.


Guest Kerchak

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Guest Kerchak

A lot of unsubstantiated claims do the rounds declaring that Roger Patterson was a bona fide proven hoaxer, so it's about time the other side of the coin was discussed.

Here is a great example of Roger Patterson being hoaxed into believing Joe Metlow was holding a captured injured bigfoot down an old mine in early 1970. This was connected to the Bossburg flap of the same time period.

Roger Patterson got duped by Metlow's hoax, entered into a bidding war with Rene Dahinden for 'the bigfoot' and spent a lot of time in the winter of 1970 on snow shoes and snowmobiles trying to locate this mine where the alleged bigfoot was being held captive.

Great reading. It's from the Rene Dahinden/Don Hunter book.Of course the FACT that Roger Patterson was a gullible hoaxee will not be great reading to Patterson's detractors.

http://www.bigfooten...es/bossburg.htm

(scroll to about halfway down for the Patterson part)

Why would a man who (according to his detractors) was supposedly a clever conniving serial hoaxer who had been perpetrating hoaxes for years suddenly go backwards in 1970 and end up looking like a fool, being completely and utterly duped by the wild hoax of somebody else, namely Joe Metlow?

Hoaxers do the hoaxing. Hoaxers do not run around like a gullible fool in the middle of a snowy winter falling for the hoax of somebody else.

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Guest OntarioSquatch

I agree he wasn't the incredible hoaxer some of us might say. Did Roger really go down to bluff creek for a few seconds of shaky film that had the most amazing Bigfoot suit ever or was he there for the real thing because he knew they exist?

Once in a while in this world, someone with an open mind comes along and says "hey, what if this is real?". Then they create history.

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Guest Kerchak

Correct, he wasn't the incredible hoaxer that some claim. We know he was a gullible hoaxee.

Just to clarify (in case this thread gets derailed in subsequent posts by his detractors) this thread is about Roger Patterson the hoaxee and to discuss him being the hoaxee.

If anyone wants to talk about Patterson being a hoaxer then please do so in other threads, not this one.

Thanks.

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kitakaze
Once in a while in this world, someone with an open mind comes along and says "hey, what if this is real?". Then they create history.

OS, a key element you're missing out on that is based in what I think is a narrow-minded viewpoint or argument is the notion of as if every Bigfoot hoaxer out there is extremely wiley, but not only too wiley to be duped themselves, but as if they are beyond believing in Bigfoot and believing in Bigfoot could have nothing to do with their motivations in hoaxing.

This is a typical black and white view of things that fails to actually ever really try thinking like a hoaxer. Most believers don't and can't think like hoaxers because they are too invested in believing and can't go to another place. Financial motivation, however, is not the only motivation for someone to hoax Bigfoot. Nor does a hoaxer need byt one motivation to decide to engage in hoaking. People in Bigfootery and moreover people in general want nice, neatly packaged easy to undertstand that play out simple and in clearly defined black and white. They want their heros pure and their villains all nasty black in the heart and evil.

This is a mode of thinking that cause failure for many people to gain a true grasp on the world around them.

In my interviews with Philip Morris, one of the central things he and I debated was the notion of whether or not Roger Patterson ever actually believed in Bigfoot. Phil was completely convinced Roger was only ever purely a conman and never had a shred of belief in Bigfoot, only desire for easy riches. I think Phil has greatly misunderstood Roger Patterson. Greg Long fell into the trap of defining Roger through his narrow-minded theological viewpoint in which he basically considered Roger to be a conniving, adulterous, twisted heathen he used and discarded people all for his own personal gain. Greg Long is being no more open-minded than the intransigent Bigfoot believers who call Heironimus a sociopath, bum, jerk, liar, idiot and whatever other venom and hate they can work up at Bob Heironimus. Greg Long failed at a basic level to understand what Roger was like as a person, what pressures he faced, what he aspired to, and what his world around him was like.

Phil does not villify Roger the way Long did, but he still misunderstands Roger in thinking he did not have a powerful desire for Bigfoot to be real. The two images here are some of the very first things that captured Roger's imagination about Bigfoot in late 1959/early 1960...

Bigpattersonyoink.jpgBigmortpat.jpg

Now Roger may havee lifted those illustrations for his own book, but you can see two things here - Roger was not only very creative and skilled as an artist, but the existence of Bigfoot clearly captured his passion and imagination. I know that feeling all too well as it gripped me in a huge way as a child and then into adulthood. But also along with that passion and interest in Bigfoot, Roger had an even greater all consuming passion - Roger wanted to strike it rich and he wanted to to do by his own means. All the people around him, his family, his closest friends, his acquaintences, everyone saw in him an absolute refusal to play the 9-5 game and work for the man. Roger would have none of it. If he became passionate about something, he would work at it night and day. Want to see Roger's passion and his belief in Bigfoot in physical form? Here it is...

39019e15.jpg

ecf55ed5.jpg

There is Roger's belief manifested. Many Bigfooters today think of Roger as having been just an ex-rodeo rider. What they don't know was that he was an inventor also. That is Roger's very on A-Team style personally modified Bigfootmobile constructed from a military postal vehicle. Roger was like Murdock and he pimped that ride. It had call-blasters, floodlight rigging, and even a capture and storage facility for containing a Bigfoot in the back. These were the actions of a passionate man that believed in Bigfoot, but also knew the power of cool toys to impress people. Roger was a pitchman as well. I think that Roger realized very early in the game that he needed to make Bigfoot happen to generate the interest and funds to really find Bigfoot. he really did want to find Bigfoot. The thing is that Roger wasn't above making things happen to convince people it was real and get them going his way.

And then Al DeAtley came in the picture.

His wealthy brother-in-law was far more intelligent than Roger and far more gifted at business and finance. We have now a thread where believers theorize that skeptics like me must think Roger was some wild genius. Again, this is black and white thinking which fails much in the way Grover Krantz failed. It overcomplicates things and creates complexities that do not actually exist. Roger was no genius. He did wildly stupid things. There was a reason Roger was serially destitute. But when his brother-in-law saw that Roger was onto something pimping Bigfoot dreams in a paranormal-obsessed America, he saw an opportunity to make a very quick, very large sum of money that he needed for his father's failing paving business. Al DeAtley became the main brains and became Roger's handler. DeAtley would take care of the details and point Roger in the direction Roger needed to go and let him do his thing. Not his finding Bigfoot thing. Roger never was before DeAtley and never after DeAtley any more successful at finding Bigfoot than Dahinden and Green before him all the way up to $$$Finding Bigfoot$$$ Moneymaker now. Roger can absolutely have dreamed and hoped that bigfoot was out there, but that doesn't mean he wasn't pragmatic enough to realize he had to make some things happen in the meantime. You do not run a Bigfoot corporation taking hundreds of dollars per person for Bigfoot "expeditions" all over North America without realizing this.

So where does that leave us? Can we easily and so narrowly define things in terms of some notion of "Hoaxers do the hoaxing, they never become the hoaxed,"? This simply isn't true and ignores the history of Bigfoot. Was Roger fooled by Joe Metlow claiming to have Bigfoot on a mountain and then a Bigfoot leg in his sister's freezer? Excellent. This was three years after the PGF. It is not as if Roger stopped believing in Bigfoot when Al DeAtley, himself, Bob Gimlin, and Bob Heironimus created the Bluff Creek hoax. OS, do you know who else was duped by Metlow?

This guy was duped by Metlow...

5933034_f260.jpg

Grafters attract grafters, OS, and hoaxing attracts more hoaxing. This is the very nature of Bigfootery. It would never have gotten to the point it is now if hoaxers had not seen opportunity for themselves or their desires in it. The desire for money, the desire for recognition and notoriety, or even the simple joy of perpetuating belief. Look at Ray Wallace. The man hoaxed for years, never confessed to anyone, and did as much from his trickster nature as anything else. From 1969 up to 1971, Marx was busybee working away at his cripplefoot hijinx, but all that attention he brought to Bossburg brough another hoaxer who saw his own opportunity. You must understand that the game was stakes is high back then. From Tom Slick to Tom Page, there were millionaire high-rollers who had fallen for the Bigfoot graft themselves throwing money wherever they could because they had caught the Bigfoot bug. Ivan Marx was as much duped by Joe Metlow as every other Bigfoot hunter there. Do you think Ivan Marx had no belief in Bigfoot. He may have been doing a lot of hoaxing, but he believed in Bigfoot just as much as the next Bigfooter.

Hoaxers were hoaxed then and hoaxers have been hoaxed now. Ivan's wife, she was a hoaxer right along with her husband. You know who she's been hoaxed by? Do you recognize the gentleman with his arm around Peggy Marx here...

bigfoot-research051605.jpg

If you need a hint, here's one word: Georgia.

Indeed, that particular hoaxer would have us believe that he himself was the victim of a hoax in that escapade. To think that hoaxers do not get hoaxed is a complete failure to understand the history of Bigfootery.

"Hoaxers don't get hoaxed," fails at a most basic level misunderstanding. It is born form the idea that Bigfoot hoaxers are not in fact often Bigfoot believers themselves as well.

Forgive the irritating sound, but here is an insightful look at exactly one such person...

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Guest Kerchak
OS, do you know who else was duped by Metlow?

This guy was duped by Metlow...

5933034_f260.jpg

I'm sorry but I'm not letting Kitakaze's misinformation spread further.

In fact Marx was NOT 'duped' by Metlow.

Marx was not involved in the chase for the captured/injured bigfoot.

Marx took a back seat in the whole Metlow fiasco and was probably chucking to himself at all the shenanigans.

If Marx was duped by Metlow and was convinced Metlow was holding an injured captive bigfoot you can bet he would have joined either the Patterson camp or the Dahinden camp or gone his own way. He did none of the above and in fact he remained neutral on the whole affair and stayed out of it and even asked Dahinden to not tell him anything.

And once again this thread is about PATTERSON THE HOAXEE. I do not want it turned into discussion of Peggy Marx and Paul Freeman etc etc. That can be talked about elsewhere.

It is disingenuous of Kitakaze to have me on ignore and then to enter a thread I have just started and straight away try to intentionality derail it.

If Kitakaze claims he has me on ignore then why on earth would he even want to post in a thread I have just started?

Edited by Kerchak
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SweatyYeti

PattyLMSMMoveAG6.gif

kitakaze wrote;

There is Roger's belief manifested.

In living....moving....color... :)

And....in black-and-white...

F350-F370AG3.gif

Edited by SweatyYeti
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kitakaze

When a Bigfoot believer goes about trying to think like a Bigfoot hoaxer, how do they do it? What do they imagine of the mindset of the hoaxer and his/her/their motivations. Have been an ardent believer myself for about twenty years prior to becoming a skeptic, I find I can easily put myself back in my old shoes.

When you think of the motivation for a person to hoax Bigfoot, is something like this one of the first things to come to mind?

rickdyermoney.jpg

It should be, because certainly C.R.E.A.M., money, financial gain is one of the firt things naturally that motivates a person to hoax Bigfoot. However, we should really, absolutely, in the year 2012 with decades upon decades of Bigfoot hoaxing to reference upon as a collective community and as individuals to allow ourselves to learn about the mindset and motivation of the Bigfoot hoaxer.

Sometimes, it's really not so much money as it is recognition and notoriety...

cliff_crook_museum.jpg

Sometimes it has nothing to do with recognition or notoriety at all, which they want nothing to do with, and more a mixture of mischief and pleasure in fooling people...

10-1-bigfoot-Wallace_portrait3.gif

There can even be a sort of altruistic motivation for the benefit and prosperity of your community...

Bigscoop.gif

Maybe not for the prosperity of your community, but something closer to home, like a family business...

Deatley.jpg

You may be a hoaxer simply for the joy and wonder of perpetuating Bigfoot belief, which you embrace fully...

toddstanding.jpg

Maybe you believe so much that convincing others is the only motivation you need...

freeman8.JPG

Maybe it's some kind of weird community activism/artistic expression thing...

bigfoot-monadnock-summit.jpeg

Wow, maybe your motivations are completely undecipherable and not something we could even begin to guess at...

9445-9445-20051208_124422-320x240.jpg

And maybe personal financial gain, a family business benefit, recognition and notoriety, a belief in Bigfoot and perpetuating it in others, bringing your community together, and who knows what all come into play...

april-fools-day-animal-hoaxes-bigfoot_34036_600x450.jpg

In the end it can be one of these things, it can be a combination of two or more, all of the above, or ones we don't even know about. In no way is there anything about crossing the line into being a Bigfoot hoaxer that makes you immune to belief and the potential to be hoaxed yourself. This can very much happen and has so multiple times across the decades of history of Bigfootery. To predispose some notion that "Hoaxers do the hoaxing and are not the hoaxed," as if there is some black and white universally applicable law that a hoaxer is beyond the possibility of being a hoaxee, is coming from a perspective that I think two-dimensionalizes people and their reasons for doing things no differently than Greg Long did with Roger Patterson.

See beyond the black and white. Don't expect all the answers to be neat and tidy and fit in nice little packages. Try seeing the shades of grey, try seeing the spectrum of human experience and don't try and define the world in a manner that fits only with your on personal mode of thinking. And yes, absolutely, yes, that applies every bit as much to me and my mode of thinking that Bigfoot doesn't exist. That perspective changes irrevocably and forever once my eye see reliable evidence for Bigfoot. It's doesn't even have to be proof. It's only fair, right?

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kitakaze

I think any discussion that centers on the notion of the likelihood of a Bigfoot hoaxer becoming the hoaxee will not be complete without one of the most infamous cases in recent history...

http://distynet.com/picture_library/backcovers/091037192547_Anatomy_of_a_Bigfoot_Hoax_3PANEL.jpg

http://www.mcclean.org/bigfoottimes/blog/uploaded_images/HoaxDVD_front-737179.jpg

We all know that hoaxing is something Tom Biscardi is very good at. The question is how plausible is the notion that as Biscardi and all the people around him claim, he was infact the victim of a hoac by Matt Whitton and Rick Dyer. We've had lots of discussion on that if one is interested in searching for it, but we are quite lucky in the sense that our very own BFF staff member (until recently, I think?) Squatchdetective Steve Kulls has major insight into that as he was entrenched in the investigation if exactly that. If Steve is around to share an opinion, I welcome it.

As for Roger's experience in being a hoaxee, as stated above, there is no reason whatsoever why he should not have been hoaxed. Can a thief be not robbed? Can a conman not be conned? A grafter not grafted? Having filmed someone in a suit does not necessitate that you can't believe someone actually shot and stashed one, or had the keg of one in a sister's freezer. Bigfoot in a freezer? Wow! Sound familiar? Actually with Hansen and the Georgia Boys, way too familiar. One thing many may not know was the Joe Metlow claimed his Bigfoot was stashed on the Frisco Standard mountain, which was in fact only an hour drive from Bossburg, and that Bossburg had been the sight of not one, but two recent hoaxes with the cripplefoot escapades by Ivan Marx and a visit by the Minnesota Iceman "Bozo" with Frank Hansen. Bossburg, WA in the late 60's/early 70's was almost as much a hoaxer gongshow as the Bluff Creek area had been for a decade prior to that.

A lot more can be read in Joshua Blu Buhs excellent book Bigfoot: The Life and Times of a Legend. Here is some of the history of the Bossburg hoaxes including Joe Metlow's entry into the fray and the boiling over of the backbiting and infighting of the early Bigfoot hunters...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=RI4SlHwH7h0C&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=bigfoot+joe+metlow+frisco+standard&source=bl&ots=d3by2jVHVF&sig=0kBrUt3BI8v705FQZWBiQpZ1bn0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=feqYT6mNFueq2gWi4NGrDQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bigfoot%20joe%20metlow%20frisco%20standard&f=false

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BobbyO
SSR Team

He's not listening Kerchak because he has you on " Ignore " doesn't he ? :D

Incredible, truly incredible.

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Guest Kerchak

One thing many may not know was the Joe Metlow claimed his Bigfoot was stashed on the Frisco Standard mountain, which was in fact only an hour drive from Bossburg,

Ya see Kitakaze, if you didn't have me on ignore and didn't blindly enter a thread just started by poster who is on your ignore list then you would have KNOWN that in my very first post here I already linked to a site that went into the Bossburg affair in great detail.

If you want to ignore posters then its best to also ignore the thread they have just started as well and just go and play with some plastic mice instead. There is ZERO point in joining a thread if you don't even have the courtesy to read the opening thread starter post.

He's not listening Kerchak because he has you on " Ignore " doesn't he ? :D

Incredible, truly incredible.

It is truly flippin' amazing my friend. The mind boggles.

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Sort of off-topic but somewhat on Roger also fell for the Yeti-in-a-monastery claim and spent the last of his money trying to equip an expedition to go get it.

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Guest Kerchak

^

I was going to bring that up later LAL.

Feel free to expand this 'hoaxee' angle to include the Yeti-in-a-monastery dupe that Roger also fell for.

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kitakaze

The following is an entry on Joe Metlow and the Bossburg Bigfoot gongshow from an excellent skeptical examination of Ivan Marx...

Joe Metlow

The news of the Bossburg tracks quickly spread among the Bigfoot research pioneers, and they began converging upon the area to do their own discovering and investigating. During this opportune gathering, a local prospector named Joe Metlow devised a devious little scam.

Without going into detail, as it has little to do with Ivan Marx, it is only necessary to note that Joe Metlow announced that he had captured a Bigfoot, which got the immediate and rapt attention of the "Bigfoot group." Metlow dodged all requests to see the body, and changed his story with each dodge until everyone finally figured out that he had been lying through his teeth about having a body or body parts.

René Dahinden claims that he figured Metlow was lying, after his second dodge, to avoid producing a body. Dahinden was dismayed that the others did not also see it, and became disgusted with their irrationality in the whole matter. Dahinden expressed his disgust that the others' only interest in Bigfoot was borne of financial gain and greed.

An important point to note from the Joe Metlow episode is that it inadvertently served to bring out the true colors of Bigfoot research pioneers. The "Bigfoot group", which had been working together up until the time that Metlow announced his alleged capture, began vying for ownership of the nonexistent body. The battle for ownership divided the "group" into two camps, each outbidding the other for ownership. One camp was basically run by René Dahinden, and the other by Roger Patterson. The division, and childish bickering that occurred as a result, strongly contributed toward discouraging mainstream science from taking such researchers seriously. Only two Bigfoot research pioneers appear not to have taken a side; Ivan Marx, and John Green.

According to René Dahinden, Green was bouncing back and forth between camps to see which would offer him the best advantage to gaining access to the body. Ivan Marx, on the other hand, showed absolutely no interest at all in the claim made by Joe Metlow. Ivan separated himself from it all, declaring his neutrality, and continued to discover tracks all around the area.

Though Marx never claimed that he didn't believe Metlow's story, he did not jump on the opportunity to get his hands on an alleged body, as everyone else had. One could say that Marx showed definite signs of someone who didn't really believe there was a creature. Whether the apparent disbelief came from mistrusting Metlow (which Marx never implied), or from not believing in the existence of Bigfoot, can only be speculation. But it's an interesting point to ponder.

The Joe Metlow episode would be a lesson about greed and gullibility that would be repeated again and again by hoaxers and those who remain blindly hopeful. The only ones who aren't taken in, are those who know it's a lie, or are careful, or are skeptical, or just don't care. I wonder which could be applied to Ivan Marx.

http://www.enigmaticstatic.com/doubt/imarx.shtml

Most important to note there is Dahinden expressing his disgust at the greed for financial gain by the other parties involved. As I noted in my earlier post, a hoaxer need not be defined by one motivation only. Roger can very much have believed in Bigfoot when he made his film at Bluff Creek. He can very much have hoped that the financial gain from that would allow him to further his efforts to find a real Bigfoot. So it is again with the Metlow farce in Bossburg that there can be more than one motivation for Roger...

- Roger can have been strongly motivated by the lure of finding a real Bigfoot.

- Roger can have been strongly motivated by the financial gain in acquiring a Bigfoot with whatever arrangement he had with benefactor Tom Page.

- Roger can be strongly motivated for recognition and notoriety to be the man that comes up with more than a film that was dismissed by scientists - he can be at the head of the effort which results in the capture of a living Bigfoot or part of a dead one.

All of these things or any combination or even just or others unknown could be at play for Roger going to Bossburg and ultimately being hoaxed while having been a Bigfoot hoaxer going back to the early 60's. Roger's specialty was Bigfoot movies. Roger had never claimed to capture a Bigfoot, although by the many contraptions he built, he certainly had an interest. It should be noted that Roger was not the one who initially went into the race for Metlow's Bigfoot. That was his friend and partner post PGF, Dennis Jensen, pictured here beside Roger...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MUZ9dK6mU7U/SUXrM9iklkI/AAAAAAAAF9Y/KLf8-1ESQR4/s320/Roger+Patterson+and+Dennis+Jenson.bmp

I also need to revise that Marx can not be said to have been hoaxed by Metlow. I actually can only speculate if Marx's lack of interest had to do with some knowledge or arrangement with Metlow, preoccupation with his own hoaxing, or who knows what.

This of course does not mean that Marx did not actually believe in Bigfoot. Whether he did or not is a discussion for another thread, but one thing is for certain - Ivan Marx was a resourceful hoaxer who had been hoaxed himself. Who has hee been hoaxed by? The trcikster who's photo was shown in my previos post, Ray Wallace. As mentioned before, Ivan Marx lived for years in Northern California before moving to Washington where he did his most famous hoaxes. Back in 1960 Ivan Marx was part of Tom Slick's Northwest Expedition in NorCal where many involved were duped by tracks put down by Ray Wallace and associates.

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Guest Kerchak
""I also need to revise that Marx can not be said to have been hoaxed by Metlow. I actually can only speculate if Marx's lack of interest had to do with some knowledge or arrangement with Metlow, preoccupation with his own hoaxing, or who knows what.""

Geez. I already told everyone else that many posts above.

Marx was not fooled into believing Metlow had a bigfoot.

Roger Patterson WAS.....and he went out of his way to try and find it. It even lead to him having a brief falling out with Dahinden.

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