Skookum Cast

[Guest]

Parnassus - I began using various commercial grades of plaster over 30 years ago. I became a Plaster Pattern Maker in the aerospace industry *snip for space* All one needs to do is compare between the two surfaces (ungulate - Skookum cast) to understand the differences.

Excellent supporting documentation, DDA!

What can you provide to show this is the case vs. Casting artifacts being caused by by dessication?

He addressed this when he mentioned

do not arrest the effects of the substrate (apply moisture barriers)

A moisture barrier would work both ways: the plaster would be prevented from soaking up potential moisture from a wet substrate and could not be "wicked" by a dry substrate.

[Guest]

What can you provide to show this is the case vs. Casting artifacts being caused by by dessication?

Not arguing that what is seen in the skookum "Heel" is casting artifacts, but what can you provide showing the features are identical to primate skin?

Answered the first question already, but here are some additional comments on it. First, it would be extremely hard to get desiccation artifacts in a solid or wet substrate, such as frozen or wet mud. Secondly, Matt Crowley has documented what desiccation artifacts would most likely look like in a majority of situations. I agree with him on this.

I could provide good pictures of the areas that look like skin patches and friction surfaces, but why should I? My opinion right now is that there is not enough casts showing dermal like ridges to categorize any typical characteristics on to them, such as their relative size, pattern, spacing and direction. Pictures that I have seen all look to me like human accidents in making a cast. Then there was that one case where someone wanted to try and hoax or... ahmmm blind test Dr. Krantz's theory on them with walnut shell impressed toes. There are many more animals in the world than what was first thought to have these friction ridges on appendages than first believed. Did you know that mice and rat tails have these friction ridges? Could a rat or mouse of some type roll around in a Bigfoot track and leave impressions of these ridges? I think it possible and a likely scenario not too hard to imagine. For that I could post a picture of Peter Byrne holding a flattened mouse taken from a supposed Bigfoot track, but once again, why should I?

[Guest parnassus]

Answered the first question already, but here are some additional comments on it. First, it would be extremely hard to get desiccation artifacts in a solid or wet substrate, such as frozen or wet mud. Secondly, Matt Crowley has documented what desiccation artifacts would most likely look like in a majority of situations. I agree with him on this.

I could provide good pictures of the areas that look like skin patches and friction surfaces, but why should I? My opinion right now is that there is not enough casts showing dermal like ridges to categorize any typical characteristics on to them, such as their relative size, pattern, spacing and direction. Pictures that I have seen all look to me like human accidents in making a cast. Then there was that one case where someone wanted to try and hoax or... ahmmm blind test Dr. Krantz's theory on them with walnut shell impressed toes. There are many more animals in the world than what was first thought to have these friction ridges on appendages than first believed. Did you know that mice and rat tails have these friction ridges? Could a rat or mouse of some type roll around in a Bigfoot track and leave impressions of these ridges? I think it possible and a likely scenario not too hard to imagine. For that I could post a picture of Peter Byrne holding a flattened mouse taken from a supposed Bigfoot track, but once again, why should I?

I appreciate your lengthy response; back to that illustration....perhaps I could press you on the issue of those apparent ridges on the "heel", do you happen to know whether these are what Meldrum is referring to and as the ones vouched for by Chilcutt as what are commonly called friction or dermal ridges? Do you, having seen the cast, have an opinion on what they represent?

Edited April 22, 2011 by parnassus

[wolftrax]

Answered the first question already, but here are some additional comments on it. First, it would be extremely hard to get desiccation artifacts in a solid or wet substrate, such as frozen or wet mud. Secondly, Matt Crowley has documented what desiccation artifacts would most likely look like in a majority of situations. I agree with him on this.

so basically the comment should read like this:

Casting artifacts are produced by inexperienced people. They either add air to the mixture of plaster and water (by mixing in air or pouring water into plaster), do not arrest the effects of the substrate (apply moisture barriers), mix the plaster too thick or wait to long before using (allowing the mixture to shorten it's pot-life or cure cycle), add an ingredient that can produce detrimental surface effects (oils), or pull the cast from the substrate before fully curing.

I could provide good pictures of the areas that look like skin patches and friction surfaces, but why should I? My opinion right now is that there is not enough casts showing dermal like ridges to categorize any typical characteristics on to them, such as their relative size, pattern, spacing and direction. Pictures that I have seen all look to me like human accidents in making a cast. Then there was that one case where someone wanted to try and hoax or... ahmmm blind test Dr. Krantz's theory on them with walnut shell impressed toes. There are many more animals in the world than what was first thought to have these friction ridges on appendages than first believed. Did you know that mice and rat tails have these friction ridges? Could a rat or mouse of some type roll around in a Bigfoot track and leave impressions of these ridges? I think it possible and a likely scenario not too hard to imagine. For that I could post a picture of Peter Byrne holding a flattened mouse taken from a supposed Bigfoot track, but once again, why should I?

Ok, so nothing here on actual comparisons of primate skin?

The surface features on this area are quite unlike anything Matt Crowley has ever found during his experiments. They are in fact identical to features you could find on primate skin.

[Guest parnassus]

DDA

It would seem pretty straightforward for you to use your technique to make casts of known elk impressions . Have you done this?

Could ask for your recipe for casting material?

[Guest]

I appreciate your lengthy response; back to that illustration....perhaps I could press you on the issue of those apparent ridges on the "heel", do you happen to know whether these are what Meldrum is referring to and as the ones vouched for by Chilcutt as what are commonly called friction or dermal ridges? Do you, having seen the cast, have an opinion on what they represent?

I am back in Florida right now and have neither the LMS book, pictures of the impression or cast with me, just a laptop. If you could post the picture you are talking about I might have a comment or two on it.

I can describe the heel, hair, skin patch and ridge details to you but that may not be of help without the picture. As far as I know, I am the only one who has a picture of the skin patch with enough clarity that it can be made out. The trouble with taking pictures of the cast for things like this is that it has an elevation topography of only 6 inches, with only a 180 degree viewing angle in the vertical. It is very hard to get close enough for a macro shot without running into some other outcropping on the cast. The relief is also a problem in that it is hard to place a common sized light source near enough, yet with a strong enough apex angle to produce adequate shadowing. Then we get into the depth of field thing. I don't have something like a fiber-optic light source used on models (trains, planes and automobiles) but when I get back I think I am going to try a new technique with HDR and multiple focus point compositions. There is a lens camera system out now that can re-focus an image after it has been made, using a disk with many perforations on it in the optical path. This can be simulated but I think it requires some software or something... I digress.

I don't know if the ridges in the picture are in fact the ridges Jeff Meldrum wrote about. They may very well be. As far as I know, Jimmy Chilcutt saw the original cast at the Willow Creek Symposium and no where else. I was not with him 100% of the time at the symposium but while I was with him, he never studied the cast for any great length of time. I think he did study the small duplicate of the heel I made for Jeff though.

What I see on the heel area is a human like achilles tendon, 1" long fine hair that is in separate strands curving over this tendon, stuck together curved hair rounding over the heel area, a coyote track, an approximate 1"x1" skin like patch (looking similar to orange peal, wrinkles and pores but not consistent through out in the effect), and longer ridge like details almost parallel with the cast plane (rather thick in my opinion compared to all other types of friction ridges I have seen, but I am no expert in them). Some of these features are also evident on the other impact sites of the same or additionally similar object (heel - heels). The hair is hair. The skin patch is a skin patch, the tendon is a tendon, not a bone. The ridges... I have never seen anything like them actually. They could be likened to the ridges running on the side of your own foot when there is weight placed on the foot... compression ridges. There may be friction ridges within those ridges that I have not observed and that Jimmy and Jeff may be talking about.

DDA

It would seem pretty straightforward for you to use your technique to make casts of known elk impressions . Have you done this?

Could ask for your recipe for casting material?

When I was with the BFRO I wrote a white paper on casting Bigfoot tracks in the field. Yeah, specifically those of Bigfoot. I find there is a big difference with some aspects of the process over those used by law enforcement or wildlife agencies. I believe I also posted it on the old BFF. Since then it appears a few people have gotten a hold of it and used the material to write their own version of it. Are you asking about the material to use? or How to store and transport it? or How to mix it? or How to use it? My original paper was about 20 pages or so describing all of that. I will have to look for it. Many different computers between then and now...LOL.

DDA

It would seem pretty straightforward for you to use your technique to make casts of known elk impressions . Have you done this?

Yes, with a willing elk. I have had to resort to just using a dismembered limb from one to date. Most impressions I have come across haven't had the detail in them I would like, meaning there was no detail and they were very shallow, not in a wet substrate. Eventually I think I will come across some that will be great to cast for comparison, if I can ever stop this traveling stuff.