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Why Are The Pgf Detractors So Persistent?


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OkieFoot

Actually Sweaty you sort of hit the nail on the head.  You see with the PGF we have the tale of a dedicated hunter who in the space of a few years completes his goal of documenting the animal of his search.  He does this on the proverbial shoestring and he does it reasonably well at face value.  The idea of "apes among us here in North America explodes and soon we have the beast all over te place.  Groups and organizations are formed to document it, books get written, movies are made and soon the crypto world has bigfoot on the brain.  But the first wave of possibility eventually falters and all but peters out as first years roll by then decades pass and the only thing to show for it are more areas claiming to have the thing while reasonable proof remains forever out of reach.   How a subject like bigfoot can mushroom into a nationwide interest with "researchers" in virtually all of the states and come up perpetually empty handed can most reasonably explained by the nonexistence of bigfoot.  Like it or not the fuel that keeps the thing going is essentially ever more clever excuses for us not being able to apprehend it.  Most recently bigfoot has acquired paranormal properties and connections which place it beyond mortal grasp.  The question needs to be asked why bigfoot?  Why should bigfoot become paranormal on account of our inability to prove it?  Why didn't the Snow Leopard get tagged with paranormal abilities since it's so hard to find?   In bigfoot there is this moving goalpost where proponents create novel constructs to allow the existence of their passion to remain out of reach but still real.  Now I haven't touched upon the bigfoot hoax aspect since the preposterous spread of the thing and perpetual failure of proponents to prove it.  But we need to go back again to Roger Patterson's time and look at the activities of his cohorts.  We have Ray Wallace who pretty much single handed brought bigfoot to the world.  And we have Ivan Marx who proceeded to make a series of hoax films and tracks.   Roger was not in good company and the modality of the descendants of that company continued to operate at the same level of "reality" in each and every major bigfoot event that's come along since.  The tradition of hoax and scam continues to this day.  However the most telling aspect to this is the total lack of solid indisputable evidence.  After half a century we're still without anything better than a motley collection of often fake plaster casts.  Also face it there is no reasonable graphic evidence and no laboratory science to lend credence to Roger's film being of a real animal that leaves in it's wake or demise truly testable evidence.   At the end of the day nothing about bigfoot adds up.  Not the very first recorded tracks, not the creation of the PGF and most certainly not the 5 decades of non evidence since.  Once all excuses and pretense are dropped there is nothing to bigfoot except myth making.  

 

Let me add to JDL's pro PGF post.  He states that only one person could have made the suit.  No there is no reason who more than one person could have been involved making the suit.  He misses the concept that the PGF is a hoax and a great one.  Great hoaxes are not designed to leave a trail of evidence.  We keep demanding the suit but a hoax suit is best destroyed after the hoax.  We have a half century to look back on and weigh it against the probability of the PGF being real.  I'll add yet again we are 100% without credible proof that bigfoot exists.

 

You're right that if it was a suit, more than one person could have been involved in making it. However, the more people that are involved means it's less likely that the secret would remain a secret, and for 48 years no less. 

By making such a brilliant suit that was ahead of its time and no one has duplicated since, that head man and the group probably missed out on a money making opportunity by keeping their advanced knowledge a secret. 

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Gotta Know

Some facts:

 

4.  Many people cannot accept the fact that something like bigfoot can exist.  It is abhorrent and monstrous to us.  I, myself, went through this process after my first face to face encounter.  It shouldn't be, it mustn't be, it cannot be.  The world, my world, cannot support the existence of such a creature, a bonafide, real life monster.  But I was forced to accept it, and that was before I ever saw the PGF or had heard the name "bigfoot".  Skeptics who have only viewed the PGF and other evidence second hand have never been in a situation where they have been "forced" to accept bigfoot as a reality, and they will quibble about it until the day they are, dismissing, denouncing, and even personally attacking those who offer personal accounts.

 

5.  We have a particular world view regarding our position in the cosmos and our mastery thereof.  For skeptics it does not support bigfoot, therefore bigfoot cannot be allowed to exist.  It offends their beliefs, therefore any other belief must be eradicated.  Proceed with the Inquisition!

These two passages embody what I was trying to say, only you have done so much more eloquently. These go to the core of the skeptic's argument, but they dress their arguments in such ways as to hide the simple fact that they are simply not COMFORTABLE with the truth. They can spin all they want, but ultimately, their argument is, "It can't be, because I said so. And I say so, because I was taught to believe something else."

 

Look, I get it. I really do. But personally, anyone who can watch the PGF (among other very convincing pieces of evidence--heck, the sheer volume of it alone, and for centuries at that) and still hold onto, "No way. No how. Not possible. Not on my watch," is really not worth engaging with further. In fact, there's one in this thread who I will now put on ignore. No hard feelings, but at some point all the finely crafted pieces of refutation is just so much confetti in the wind.

 

Let the skeptics have their podium. But good luck talking BF out of existence.

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Backdoc

Because there is a plethora of evidence indicating that the Patterson-Gimlin film was a hoax.

 

 

 

 

Evidence?  I think not.  Various theories of idea on how it might be a man in a suit?   Yes.

 

So far they have fallen short.   

 

David J. Daegling  He stated as to now, we have to admit the PGF has not been proven to be a hoax in his own book.

 

Cleary his position is the PGF has not been proven a hoax. You disagree. Now I will admit Dr. D was not in Japan with you to see the suit over a video stream from Big Al's locked study.  If he had, maybe he would agree with you.

 

I would suggest even though Dangling is a skeptic he is being fair minded based on the evidence.  

 

Your Evidence.  This must be some mystery evidence.

 

BD

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dmaker

 

5.  We have a particular world view regarding our position in the cosmos and our mastery thereof.  For skeptics it does not support bigfoot, therefore bigfoot cannot be allowed to exist.  It offends their beliefs, therefore any other belief must be eradicated.  Proceed with the Inquisition!

 

Wrong. You could not be more wrong. This has been pointed out time after time, yet here is another proponent pulling out the "bigfoot threatens skeptical worldview" card. It is tiresome and dishonest. 

 

How many times must you be told, by several different people, that bigfoot has nothing to do with their worldview? Let's try one more time: bigfoot has zero to do with my worldview. The idea of bigfoot is not threatening in the least. I don't believe that bigfoot exists because there is insufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. Is that clear enough for you?

 

Besides which, how can you lay claim to know what others believe?  It's nonsense. 

 

 

The only uncomfortable truth that I see here is the obvious lack of bigfoot proof. If I were an enthusiast, I think that would make me a wee bit uncomfortable. But then again, blind faith is great for dispelling discomfort. 

Edited by dmaker
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dmaker

I don't believe anyone has seen a bigfoot with their own eyes, therefore there must be something else at the root of the anecdote, be it questionable motives or failed perception.

 

Aside from noting your interest, did you have a point to make? 

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Guest OntarioSquatch

There's a difference between not believing Bigfoot exists and believing that it doesn't exist. The latter is a belief and it's one that the PGF threatens for those who hold onto it. The reaction of denialists to the PGF is a testament to how convincing the film is as a form of evidence for the existence of Sasquatch.

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dmaker

There's a difference between not believing Bigfoot exists and believing that it doesn't exist.

 

Uhm, you want to try another shot at that sentence? That does not make sense. 

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Guest Crowlogic

 

Actually Sweaty you sort of hit the nail on the head.  You see with the PGF we have the tale of a dedicated hunter who in the space of a few years completes his goal of documenting the animal of his search.  He does this on the proverbial shoestring and he does it reasonably well at face value.  The idea of "apes among us here in North America explodes and soon we have the beast all over te place.  Groups and organizations are formed to document it, books get written, movies are made and soon the crypto world has bigfoot on the brain.  But the first wave of possibility eventually falters and all but peters out as first years roll by then decades pass and the only thing to show for it are more areas claiming to have the thing while reasonable proof remains forever out of reach.   How a subject like bigfoot can mushroom into a nationwide interest with "researchers" in virtually all of the states and come up perpetually empty handed can most reasonably explained by the nonexistence of bigfoot.  Like it or not the fuel that keeps the thing going is essentially ever more clever excuses for us not being able to apprehend it.  Most recently bigfoot has acquired paranormal properties and connections which place it beyond mortal grasp.  The question needs to be asked why bigfoot?  Why should bigfoot become paranormal on account of our inability to prove it?  Why didn't the Snow Leopard get tagged with paranormal abilities since it's so hard to find?   In bigfoot there is this moving goalpost where proponents create novel constructs to allow the existence of their passion to remain out of reach but still real.  Now I haven't touched upon the bigfoot hoax aspect since the preposterous spread of the thing and perpetual failure of proponents to prove it.  But we need to go back again to Roger Patterson's time and look at the activities of his cohorts.  We have Ray Wallace who pretty much single handed brought bigfoot to the world.  And we have Ivan Marx who proceeded to make a series of hoax films and tracks.   Roger was not in good company and the modality of the descendants of that company continued to operate at the same level of "reality" in each and every major bigfoot event that's come along since.  The tradition of hoax and scam continues to this day.  However the most telling aspect to this is the total lack of solid indisputable evidence.  After half a century we're still without anything better than a motley collection of often fake plaster casts.  Also face it there is no reasonable graphic evidence and no laboratory science to lend credence to Roger's film being of a real animal that leaves in it's wake or demise truly testable evidence.   At the end of the day nothing about bigfoot adds up.  Not the very first recorded tracks, not the creation of the PGF and most certainly not the 5 decades of non evidence since.  Once all excuses and pretense are dropped there is nothing to bigfoot except myth making.  

 

Let me add to JDL's pro PGF post.  He states that only one person could have made the suit.  No there is no reason who more than one person could have been involved making the suit.  He misses the concept that the PGF is a hoax and a great one.  Great hoaxes are not designed to leave a trail of evidence.  We keep demanding the suit but a hoax suit is best destroyed after the hoax.  We have a half century to look back on and weigh it against the probability of the PGF being real.  I'll add yet again we are 100% without credible proof that bigfoot exists.

 

You're right that if it was a suit, more than one person could have been involved in making it. However, the more people that are involved means it's less likely that the secret would remain a secret, and for 48 years no less. 

By making such a brilliant suit that was ahead of its time and no one has duplicated since, that head man and the group probably missed out on a money making opportunity by keeping their advanced knowledge a secret. 

 

Roger was making money from his film, he did rather well with it.  And he was essentially a dying man.  Why would he make such a career move?  The film set him free with half decent means.  He didn't need Hollywood and he had an in with ANE as a photographer.

 

When are the proponents going to understand that skeptics are not threatened by the PGF or by bigfoot possibly existing?  This skeptic is threatened by the abandonment of solid reason and solid science.  This skeptic is threatened by the willingness of the fringe belief community to accept create and incorporate outlandish and counter intuitive constructs in order to allow the object of their belief continued existence.  I believe in evolution.  I believe that we share the same common ancestors as our modern primate cousins, I do not lose sleep over the fact that only a very thin genetic line separates us from Chimps.  I do not lose sleep that we ourselves are apes.

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I don't believe anyone has seen a bigfoot with their own eyes, therefore there must be something else at the root of the anecdote, be it questionable motives or failed perception.

 

Aside from noting your interest, did you have a point to make? 

 

The key word in your statement is believe.

 

At this point I will point out that the PGF is evidence of bigfoot, whether you choose to accept it or not.  Dismissal of it out of hand without proof that it is a fake can only be based in subjective belief.

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OkieFoot

 

 

Actually Sweaty you sort of hit the nail on the head.  You see with the PGF we have the tale of a dedicated hunter who in the space of a few years completes his goal of documenting the animal of his search.  He does this on the proverbial shoestring and he does it reasonably well at face value.  The idea of "apes among us here in North America explodes and soon we have the beast all over te place.  Groups and organizations are formed to document it, books get written, movies are made and soon the crypto world has bigfoot on the brain.  But the first wave of possibility eventually falters and all but peters out as first years roll by then decades pass and the only thing to show for it are more areas claiming to have the thing while reasonable proof remains forever out of reach.   How a subject like bigfoot can mushroom into a nationwide interest with "researchers" in virtually all of the states and come up perpetually empty handed can most reasonably explained by the nonexistence of bigfoot.  Like it or not the fuel that keeps the thing going is essentially ever more clever excuses for us not being able to apprehend it.  Most recently bigfoot has acquired paranormal properties and connections which place it beyond mortal grasp.  The question needs to be asked why bigfoot?  Why should bigfoot become paranormal on account of our inability to prove it?  Why didn't the Snow Leopard get tagged with paranormal abilities since it's so hard to find?   In bigfoot there is this moving goalpost where proponents create novel constructs to allow the existence of their passion to remain out of reach but still real.  Now I haven't touched upon the bigfoot hoax aspect since the preposterous spread of the thing and perpetual failure of proponents to prove it.  But we need to go back again to Roger Patterson's time and look at the activities of his cohorts.  We have Ray Wallace who pretty much single handed brought bigfoot to the world.  And we have Ivan Marx who proceeded to make a series of hoax films and tracks.   Roger was not in good company and the modality of the descendants of that company continued to operate at the same level of "reality" in each and every major bigfoot event that's come along since.  The tradition of hoax and scam continues to this day.  However the most telling aspect to this is the total lack of solid indisputable evidence.  After half a century we're still without anything better than a motley collection of often fake plaster casts.  Also face it there is no reasonable graphic evidence and no laboratory science to lend credence to Roger's film being of a real animal that leaves in it's wake or demise truly testable evidence.   At the end of the day nothing about bigfoot adds up.  Not the very first recorded tracks, not the creation of the PGF and most certainly not the 5 decades of non evidence since.  Once all excuses and pretense are dropped there is nothing to bigfoot except myth making.  

 

Let me add to JDL's pro PGF post.  He states that only one person could have made the suit.  No there is no reason who more than one person could have been involved making the suit.  He misses the concept that the PGF is a hoax and a great one.  Great hoaxes are not designed to leave a trail of evidence.  We keep demanding the suit but a hoax suit is best destroyed after the hoax.  We have a half century to look back on and weigh it against the probability of the PGF being real.  I'll add yet again we are 100% without credible proof that bigfoot exists.

 

You're right that if it was a suit, more than one person could have been involved in making it. However, the more people that are involved means it's less likely that the secret would remain a secret, and for 48 years no less. 

By making such a brilliant suit that was ahead of its time and no one has duplicated since, that head man and the group probably missed out on a money making opportunity by keeping their advanced knowledge a secret. 

 

Roger was making money from his film, he did rather well with it.  And he was essentially a dying man.  Why would he make such a career move?  The film set him free with half decent means.  He didn't need Hollywood and he had an in with ANE as a photographer.

 

When are the proponents going to understand that skeptics are not threatened by the PGF or by bigfoot possibly existing?  This skeptic is threatened by the abandonment of solid reason and solid science.  This skeptic is threatened by the willingness of the fringe belief community to accept create and incorporate outlandish and counter intuitive constructs in order to allow the object of their belief continued existence.  I believe in evolution.  I believe that we share the same common ancestors as our modern primate cousins, I do not lose sleep over the fact that only a very thin genetic line separates us from Chimps.  I do not lose sleep that we ourselves are apes.

 

 

I was referring to the suit maker missed an opportunity to make more money, not Roger P. Usually when someone makes something head and shoulders above what is being currently produced, they capitalize on it when people start wanting their product. 

The suit maker could have made good money in the years after the PGF making suits for movie studios, etc.

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Guest Bigfoothunter

 

I don't believe anyone has seen a bigfoot with their own eyes, therefore there must be something else at the root of the anecdote, be it questionable motives or failed perception.

 

Aside from noting your interest, did you have a point to make? 

 

The key word in your statement is believe.

 

At this point I will point out that the PGF is evidence of bigfoot, whether you choose to accept it or not.  Dismissal of it out of hand without proof that it is a fake can only be based in subjective belief.

 

 

dmaker not only relies solely on belief - he apparently hasn't educated himself to a point so to make informed opinions of the physical evidence. If he has, then he hasn't detailed any of it, nor offered any first hand observations based on any field test he has conducted.

 

When I started out reading about footprints - I read as many sources as I could and applied them to the things I had observed in the field over my life and since that time. I conducted field test and studied the results in various substrates. I broke the stepping action down of the subjects foot in the PGF and applied it to the evidence found in the track-way and cast. I considered the type of loamy substrate that the subject walked over and paid particular attention to the wavy unevenness of the substrate, not to mention the undisturbed debris surrounding the foot tracks. Having walked many miles over the years fishing the streams of Illinois, I became quite familiar with tracks in a loamy soil. I listened to and considered Donskoy's observations pertaining to the subjects movements in the film and what they meant to Dimitri. I observed the Muppet walk demonstrated by Heironimus and others in re-enactment documentaries. I observed the movements in the costumes that Hollywood had created since the PGF. These are things in my view that set someone up to make an informed opinion regardless of which side of the coin that opinion falls on.

 

 

Crowlogic

Roger was making money from his film, he did rather well with it.  And he was essentially a dying man.  Why would he make such a career move?  The film set him free with half decent means.  He didn't need Hollywood and he had an in with ANE as a photographer.

 

Crowlogic is a classic example of the point I made above in my response to JDL. The truth is that Patterson had spent what money he had made. The money made from the film had run its course. If anything, Roger had all the motivation in the world to set his family up by sharing any alleged ability to create a costume that Hollywood had not advanced to the point of making yet. The fact remains that Roger obviously didn't have the knowledge to give Hollywood. In the 50 years - no one else has had it either.

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dmaker

Yet, for all that walking that you have done, BH, and for all the paid bigfoot tours you have conducted in your bigfootmobile, you have absolutely zero proof of bigfoots existence. 

 

 

You read as many sources as you could, did you?  Were any of those not penned by a bigfoot enthusiast?

Edited by dmaker
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Squatchy McSquatch

A desire to show that they're superior to others and "know" more.

An unwavering need to be "above" others where intelligence is concerned.

A craving for "Me, My, I" in absolutely all aspects of life.

For the most extreme detractors detractors of course, this is a high level of insecurity that coincides with mental illness even though they go through life highly likely not even knowing this.

The rest of us see it from afar of course, but it's those around them closest that feel the full force unfortunately for them.

 

Steering Committee or not you're over the line smokey.

Edited by Squatchy McSquatch
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