Did Nothing

[joebeelart]

         Just a note:  Russ, Garrett, Barb, Sharon & I spent two nights high in the Clackamas on Friday & Saturday.  We were in a unused rock quarry with gravel afoot.  On Friday night I was awoke by the sound of two ice chest lids being opened and closed {on one, the hinge had broken so it was rather loud.  In the morning, the lids on two of three were ajar. 

         So, what should we have done?  Probably put out offerings with maybe a little illumination; but, no.  We did not discuss doing anything, not even putting out a trail cam to watch the campsite at night.  Then on Saturday night we all went to bed by about 8:45 which is very unusual.  So, what happened:  {1} Barb was sleeping in her van.  She reported her dog getting nervous, hearing footsteps; and, having something push on her open side window which opens like a vent.  {2} Garrett was sleeping in his car.  He said he was very restful, which is unusual for him.  He reported hearing footsteps on gravel going around the camp.  {3} Russ (who snores good) reported hearing foot steps, some slight rummaging on/in the kitchen area.  Then, something walked to his tent and stood "watching" the tent "for the longest time."  {4} Then Sharon heard something forcefully open and close ice chests at least 6 and possibly 9 times.  The ice chests were in a line 10' from our tent.  Then she woke me up. 

         Garrett decided to be brave and go out of his car shining a flashlight around.  We gathered talked a little, compared notes {I listened because I had slept through the excitement} and went back to our bags.  So what did five experienced Bigfooters do wrong?    

Won't let me edit, so here's some background on the site.  About 600 feet on the ridge above the quarry is the Oct. 1967 Thomas site as reported by John Green in "The Apes Among Us."  Since about year 2000 we have had a variety of secondary experiences at or near that quarry including:  Steve Kiley finding a track way of 17" prints, drumming on the ridge above us as heard by Toddzilla Neiss, thermal imaging of a bipedal creature by a Ph.D. and a Ph.D. biology candidate, whistling, etc.  I'll transfer a photo from the other computer to this one to illustrate the location.  It's also in "The Oregon Bigfoot Highway." 

[LeafTalker]

Great report!

 

Not sure I understand the title of your post, though. Are you saying that five experienced Bigfooters should have done something different from what you did (which I gather you're saying was nothing)? I don't agree! I think you did the exact right thing. You just let it happen. That's all we're supposed to do. At least, if we want to maintain good will between us (meaning, between humans and BF).... That sounds like a successful outing to me, and y'all did great!

 

[SWWASAS]

If anything happened you were doing something right.      Deploying camera gear might have prevented everything.      I am at the point where I think if we have any sort of breakthrough it has to be initiated by the BF themselves.   It takes trust for them to get to that point with humans.     The Tarzan Springs event in your book,  tells me that with the right conditions, BF and humans can live together.   It certainly would take mutual trust and some perceived advantage for each side,  to do that.   I wish we had more information on that than the USGS field notes provide.  It seemed to work for that group.    

[MIB]

I like camera gear.  It doesn't have to be hidden.   Maybe they will decide to make themselves known, to give you that picture.   Chutzpah meets chutzpah.     

 

I think you did fine.  We're not solely in charge out there.   At best it is shared and I'm not sure what the balance is.  I suspect there's a juxtaposition of deliberately taking risk with being allowed initiative.  Put yourself out there, take a chance, and "others" may well respond in kind.    Pretty cool regarding everyone turning in for the night early.   Sounds like someone didn't want to wait for you to take your own sweet time and gave you a subtle nudge. 

 

MIB

[gigantor]

I guess letting them think they can come and raid your camp without a nasty reaction could be a good thing if played correctly.

 

Let them come again and again, maybe leave a few goodies...

 

Then when the time is right, wham!  a type specimen...  its worth a try.

[MIB]

How 'bout "no" to treachery and deceit?   Gig - I'm trying not to be judgmental but the whole notion of what you suggest turns my stomach.  

 

MIB

[gigantor]

4 hours ago, MIB said:

  Gig - I'm trying not to be judgmental but the whole notion of what you suggest turns my stomach.  

 

MIB

 

It's a matter of what each one of us want the end-game to be, I think.

 

Some want the mystery to last forever, they are enamored with it, It's like the never ending story. Some want to remain the privileged few who have seen or interacted with a BF, and selfishly hold on to that position for fame, glory or bragging rights, regardless of the cost to the population as a whole in the long term. The fact is that their habitat is getting smaller every day, the longer the species is unrecognized, the greater it's risk of extinction (if it hasn't occurred already). Some are in between.

 

Some of us want the species to be accepted by science so they can be protected legally under the full weight of the law; unfortunately, that requires a type specimen. Many species have been saved once they are recognized as endangered under the law.

 

It's for the good of the species, one subject to protect a whole population under the law forever. Think about it.

 

I submit to you that my position is morally superior to the alternatives. It is the right thing to do.

[MIB]

Interesting rationalization.  

 

I think we're operating from completely different assumptions, different data sets, different understanding of what's out there.   You seem stuck in ape-camp thinking trying to apply a wildlife management paradigm.   I will tell you up front it doesn't fit and it won't work.   (And I don't expect you to accept that, it's too contrary to your personal dogma.)   At the same time, "human law" doesn't fit either because it makes assumptions that don't hold either.  

 

There may come a time for proof but there is necessary legal groundwork in currently uncharted territory to establish first.   Otherwise, that proof you think will somehow save them will instead lead to extinction.  

 

In the mean time, an honest person has to ask themselves just how much protection is needed right now.   There are certainly enough people like you promoting a killing .. yet it isn't happening or we'd have that body on the slab already.   It seems you've ignored the implications of your own "facts".

 

MIB

[Sasfooty]

7 hours ago, gigantor said:

Some of us want the species to be accepted by science so they can be protected legally under the full weight of the law; unfortunately, that requires a type specimen.

If they needed to be protected "legally" under the full weight of the law, it seems like it wouldn't be so impossible to get that "specimen" to "protect".

 

How arrogant humans are to think we are somehow endowed with the ultimate justification to kill whatever life we want to study, just to satisfy our own curiosity.

[JKH]

^^Well said.

 

How many of the thousands of witnesses have received "fame, glory, or bragging rights" is a good question. So is what is their actual habitat. There have been many discussions here and elsewhere that have been educational on that subject. I'd think that the answers are clearly not simply mountains and forests.

 

The last refuge of the proofer/killer sorts who require a form of legitimacy is the idea of "protection". If you study and get out there and actually see where they go, that concept becomes pretty ridiculous.

 

Edit: Joe B, I don't understand why you ask what went wrong. Seems like you guys did what you usually do, peacefully coexisting in your camp. Some of them may even know you pretty well.

Edited September 29, 2017 by JKH

[SWWASAS]

 BF may have a fascination with coolers as has often been reported,  but I sure would not want them getting into a cooler where I keep my food.       Who knows what pathogens they have on their hands that they would spread by handling food meant for human consumption?   Pathogens they are basically immune to that could quickly kill a human.    If they scavenge at all, the pathogens would be even worse.   

 

 The cooler thing might be a way to get a picture.     There are pin hole cameras that could be installed in the lids of coolers that turn on when the lid is open.      

[norseman]

19 hours ago, gigantor said:

 

It's a matter of what each one of us want the end-game to be, I think.

 

Some want the mystery to last forever, they are enamored with it, It's like the never ending story. Some want to remain the privileged few who have seen or interacted with a BF, and selfishly hold on to that position for fame, glory or bragging rights, regardless of the cost to the population as a whole in the long term. The fact is that their habitat is getting smaller every day, the longer the species is unrecognized, the greater it's risk of extinction (if it hasn't occurred already). Some are in between.

 

Some of us want the species to be accepted by science so they can be protected legally under the full weight of the law; unfortunately, that requires a type specimen. Many species have been saved once they are recognized as endangered under the law.

 

It's for the good of the species, one subject to protect a whole population under the law forever. Think about it.

 

I submit to you that my position is morally superior to the alternatives. It is the right thing to do.

 

Plussed.

 

Its what science demands. Period.

 

 

13 hours ago, MIB said:

Interesting rationalization.  

 

I think we're operating from completely different assumptions, different data sets, different understanding of what's out there.   You seem stuck in ape-camp thinking trying to apply a wildlife management paradigm.   I will tell you up front it doesn't fit and it won't work.   (And I don't expect you to accept that, it's too contrary to your personal dogma.)   At the same time, "human law" doesn't fit either because it makes assumptions that don't hold either.  

 

There may come a time for proof but there is necessary legal groundwork in currently uncharted territory to establish first.   Otherwise, that proof you think will somehow save them will instead lead to extinction.  

 

In the mean time, an honest person has to ask themselves just how much protection is needed right now.   There are certainly enough people like you promoting a killing .. yet it isn't happening or we'd have that body on the slab already.   It seems you've ignored the implications of your own "facts".

 

MIB

 

Humans are apes.

[NatFoot]

On 9/28/2017 at 7:41 PM, MIB said:

 Sounds like someone didn't want to wait for you to take your own sweet time and gave you a subtle nudge. 

 

MIB

 

Telepathy? 

 

I guess one cannot understand this part unless they've had that experience.

 

Why do some see, and some see and have their mind read or whatever else?

[gigantor]

17 hours ago, MIB said:

...  You seem stuck in ape-camp thinking trying to apply a wildlife management paradigm....

 

In the mean time, an honest person has to ask themselves just how much protection is needed right now.   There are certainly enough people like you promoting a killing .. yet it isn't happening or we'd have that body on the slab already....

 

MIB

 

MIB - I am in the "ape-camp", because it looks like an ape. Witnesses describe an ape. What else could it be?

 

We don't have a body for many reasons. Not enough people looking to harvest a specimen. That's #1. It may already be extinct, or it never existed in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, NatFoot said:

 

Telepathy? 

 

I guess one cannot understand this part unless they've had that experience.

 

Why do some see, and some see and have their mind read or whatever else?

 

Sometimes, you have to apply Occam's Razor and discard "exotic" explanations.

[wiiawiwb]

8 hours ago, norseman said:

Its what science demands. Period.

 

 

Who cares what science demands. What scientific groups have been spectacularly and continuously funded to go out and find BF?  When that occurs then science can demand it.

 

Saying what science demands is like saying that a 650lb fat guy demands food even though he will never leave his bed to go out and earn the money to pay for it nor go out and physically get the food himself. It must be delivered to him without him ever lifting a finger..

 

Give me a break. Science can go pound salt. Period.