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norseman

45 acp vs 10mm

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Huntster
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Here is a very interesting study on firearms use during Alaskan bear attacks:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261982557_Efficacy_of_Firearms_for_Bear_Deterrence_in_Alaska

 

.........We compiled, summarized, and reviewed 269 incidents of bear-human conflict involving firearms that occurred in Alaska during 1883-2009. Encounters involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 218 incidents, 81%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 30 incidents, 11%), polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 6 incidents, 2%), and 15 (6%) unidentified species provided insight into firearms success and failure. A total of 444 people and at least 367 bears were involved in these incidents. We found no significant difference in success rates (i.e., success being when the bear was stopped in its aggressive behavior) associated with long guns (76%) and handguns (84%). Moreover, firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used their firearms or not. Bears were killed in 61% (n = 162) of bear-firearms incidents. Additionally, we identified multiple reasons for firearms failing to stop an aggressive bear. Using logistic regression, the best model for predicting a successful outcome for firearm users included species and cohort of bear, human activity at time of encounter, whether or not the bear charged, and if fish or game meat was present. Firearm variables (e.g., type of gun, number of shots) were not useful in predicting outcomes in bear-firearms incidents. Although firearms have failed to protect some users, they are the only deterrent that can lethally stop an aggressive bear. Where firearms have failed to protect people, we identified contributing causes. Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country........

 

I was initially surprised at the higher success rate for handguns, but after thinking about it, this is likely due to handguns being near to hand more often than long guns.

 

The factors for firearms failure?:

 

..........Firearms failed to protect people for a variety of reasons including lack of time to respond to the bear (27%), did not use the firearm (21%), mechanical issues (i.e., jamming; 14%), the proximity to bear was too close for deployment (9%), the shooter missed the bear (9%), the gun was emptied and could not be reloaded (8%), the safety mechanism was engaged and the person was unable to unlock it in time to use the gun (8%), people tripped and fell while trying to shoot the bear (3%), and the firearm’s discharge reportedly triggered the bear to charge that ended further use of the gun (1%).......

 

As one would expect, this was at the end of the study:

 

.......No one should enter bear country without a deterrent and these results show that firearms are not a clear choice. We encourage all persons with or without a firearm, to consider carrying a non-lethal deterrent such as bear spray

because its success rate under a variety of situations has been greater (i.e., 90% successful for all 3 North American species of bear; Smith et al 2008) than those we observed for firearms........

 

I contest that final contention. First, all the reasons for firearm failure can equally cause spray failure with the additional factor of wind (the wind will never blow your bullet back into your face). Secondly, spray has only been around for twenty years or so, and any study conducted thus far cannot be accurately compared to a study of firearms use going back over a century. Thirdly, a 90% success rate isn’t much better than the firearms success ate so far. Finally, the single type of bear encounter in which spray shines is that of a dangerously curious bear, and I content that such a bear might as well be killed before he becomes a real problem. I’ve been “tested” by a potentially predatory bear. I had a rifle, and I should have killed him, but I didn’t because I was following the rules. Frankly, I should have just wasted him. I’m fairly confident that he was a subsequent problem bear. Granted, spraying him down might have taught him a lesson, but he gave me little opportunity to blast him with the 338 WinMag. I had zero opportunity to spray him down. 

 

Spray with rifle and sidearm? Sure.......in base camp or in the vehicle. Am I going to carry that shit around on my body? No way. The Glock is heavy and bulky enough. I’ll stick with the firearms, hunting license, and bear tags in my pocket........and, most importantly, bear awareness and caution..........

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Huntster
BFF Donor

Fatal bear mauling on Admiralty Island today:

 

http://www.ktva.com/story/39207410/1-person-reported-dead-in-southeast-alaska-bear-mauling

 

Serious bear mauling in New Mexico. A Glock 10mm finally stopped the attack, but the victim didn’t have a full magazine, he had it loaded with anti-personnel ammo, and poor shot placement.

 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/

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wiiawiwb

Admirality Island aka Kootznoowoo.  Seventh largest island in the US (bigger than Long Island) and a population of 650. Of that total, 450 are nestled together in one spot called Angoon. That leaves an island with only 200 people living in nearly 1.1 million acres that has the highest density of bears in the world.

 

Many believe those are also the largest bears in the world.

 

Humans beware.

Edited by wiiawiwb

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SWWASAS

Just looking at a .45 ACP on line and noticed the same weapon was offered in a DAO or Striker fire version.     Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what striker fire is.   

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Huntster
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Me, neither.

 

I just bought a Glock 21 the other day. I also ordered Meprolight tritium sights, a 3.5# trigger, and extended slide lock release lever for it. I can’t wait to spiff it up!

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wiiawiwb
1 hour ago, SWWASAS said:

Just looking at a .45 ACP on line and noticed the same weapon was offered in a DAO or Striker fire version.     Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what striker fire is.   

 

Which particular handgun are you referring to?

 

It can get a little confusing. Here's a pretty good summary:

 

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/single-action-vs-double-action-vs-striker/

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gigantor
2 hours ago, Huntster said:

I just bought a Glock 21 the other day

 

Please let us know how you like it...

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Huntster
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I already have a Glock 20 in 10mm. I love it. It became my outdoor carry sidearm in Alaska. Soon after I bought it, that model became the sidearm everybody up here just had to have.

 

The only critter I’ve killed with it was an 8 month old Holstein steer named Norman. A 200 grain fmj went right through his head. 

 

This 45 is to replace a 45 I have in California (an EAA Witness). I’ll bring the Witness home and sell it or give it to my son-in-law.

 

The grips on the Glocks are LARGE, so it can feel uncomfortable for smaller hands or shorter fingers, but they shoot smooth, and they’re becoming the Barbie of handguns now; lots of trick kits, bells and whistles, and attachments becoming available.

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Old Time Lifter
On 9/15/2018 at 12:20 AM, Huntster said:

Officially, brown bears can weigh up to 1500 lbs. But I swear that particular bear looked like a full ton to me. He made that shed look like a little dog house. I simply can’t imagine being in a tent with monsters like that around. I blew off deer hunting on Kodiak. In addition to being crazy expensive, bear mailings there among deer hunters is quite high. The bears regard gunshots as a dinner bell.

 

I was considering applying for a pastorship on Kodiak Island a few years ago and my wife loved the idea, until she heard there were more bears on the island than people... in the end I didn't have my profile sent to them. LOL

 

I don't spend any time in bear country but my concealed carry gun is (normally) a Beretta PX4 compact in 40 s&w.  I'm thinking someday I'd like to get a full-size PX4 in 45 acp.  Probably wouldn't use it for a ccw though.

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norseman
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I believe a striker system is hammerless like a inline muzzle loader.

 

I went with the .460 Rowland conversion. Not a fan of Glock ergonomics or plastic frame. 

 

So I just converted my 1911 over.  Ive test fired it, but with vertigo have not got to really put its through its paces.

 

Shoots both .45 acp and .460 Rowland.

CC080512-720A-4D6A-A741-B29EFE7B73BF.jpeg

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Huntster
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9 hours ago, Old Time Lifter said:

I was considering applying for a pastorship on Kodiak Island a few years ago and my wife loved the idea, until she heard there were more bears on the island than people... in the end I didn't have my profile sent to them. LOL.........

 

I don’t really like living on an island simply because of being constrained from driving away, but Kodiak Island is a real special place. The visual beauty is stunning, and the fishing is probably the best in Earth; salmon, halibut, rockfish, trout, steelhead. And the deer hunting is great, too.

 

But those bears are certainly a factor to consider. This year in particular is concerning. It was a lousy salmon year, and the deer hunters this fall are running into trouble. A master guide active on the Alaska Outdoor Forum had some clients on the island who bagged several nice bucks posted that they came home without a single steak. The bears simply came in and brazenly took it all. Other hunters posted similar encounters. AFAIC, it’s a recipe for disaster. It will be remarkable if somebody doesn’t get chewed up this fall:

 

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/162141-Kodiak-deer-and-a-update-on-the-BEARS!

 

I’ve sworn off deer hunting on that island. It just isn’t worth it. First of all, it’s very expensive to get there and back. It’s cheaper for me to deer hunt as a non-resident in good sasquatch country in California than Kodiak, and over-the-counter tags are readily available in northwest California. The deer harvest rate isn’t as good in California, and the odds are that I’d never see a sasquatch there, but I’d also never get mauled by a 1500 lb bear, either.

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SWWASAS
14 hours ago, wiiawiwb said:

 

Which particular handgun are you referring to?

 

It can get a little confusing. Here's a pretty good summary:

 

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/single-action-vs-double-action-vs-striker/

I had done some research and answered my own question however your link sort of summarizes things pretty well.   Much of what I read was safety concerns about striker fire guns.     My only automatic is a hammer fire and the hammer is cocked when you chamber the round.     First of all that bothers me in that I either have to chamber the round when I go into the field and during all that time,   walk around with a cocked hammer or hope I have enough time when a cougar is about to attack to chamber the round (not likely) before firing.     For home defense I have to remember to chamber the round when the bad guy shows up.    I sure do not want to store it with a cocked hammer.      Also when the round is chambered the likelihood of  accidently discharging the round when I unload is much higher.       Much of the discussion about safety was from law enforcement who were concerned about accidental discharge with striker fired weapons.    Either when they unholstered or aimed the weapon at a potential threat.      Seems to me like the answer to that is not put your finger in the trigger until you intend to shoot it.    In a way a charging bear or cougar is pretty much the same thing as a criminal pulling out a weapon.    Seems like the threat is more important than routing safety concerns unless you shoot yourself in the process.      Anyone else have any thoughts?    

 

Huntster sounds like the Kodiak Island deer hunt is some sort of self funded  government feed the bears programs.     You get hunters to pay to be the food source.  

Edited by SWWASAS

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Old Time Lifter
1 hour ago, Huntster said:

 

I don’t really like living on an island simply because of being constrained from driving away, but Kodiak Island is a real special place. The visual beauty is stunning, and the fishing is probably the best in Earth; salmon, halibut, rockfish, trout, steelhead. And the deer hunting is great, too.

 

But those bears are certainly a factor to consider. This year in particular is concerning. It was a lousy salmon year, and the deer hunters this fall are running into trouble. A master guide active on the Alaska Outdoor Forum had some clients on the island who bagged several nice bucks posted that they came home without a single steak. The bears simply came in and brazenly took it all. Other hunters posted similar encounters. AFAIC, it’s a recipe for disaster. It will be remarkable if somebody doesn’t get chewed up this fall:

 

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/162141-Kodiak-deer-and-a-update-on-the-BEARS!

 

I’ve sworn off deer hunting on that island. It just isn’t worth it. First of all, it’s very expensive to get there and back. It’s cheaper for me to deer hunt as a non-resident in good sasquatch country in California than Kodiak, and over-the-counter tags are readily available in northwest California. The deer harvest rate isn’t as good in California, and the odds are that I’d never see a sasquatch there, but I’d also never get mauled by a 1500 lb bear, either.

 

I was kind of excited about the idea of going there but, it would have had to have been at least a 10 year commitment to make it worth selling everything and moving to an island.  That with the knowledge that it would be difficult to get back home to see any potential grand-children... still waiting for those.... and the fear my wife had over bears made it not worth even trying for the position.  :(

 

18 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

I had done some research and answered my own question however your link sort of summarizes things pretty well.   Much of what I read was safety concerns about striker fire guns.     My only automatic is a hammer fire and the hammer is cocked when you chamber the round.     First of all that bothers me in that I either have to chamber the round when I go into the field and during all that time,   walk around with a cocked hammer or hope I have enough time when a cougar is about to attack to chamber the round (not likely) before firing.     For home defense I have to remember to chamber the round when the bad guy shows up.    I sure do not want to store it with a cocked hammer.      Also when the round is chambered the likelihood of  accidently discharging the round when I unload is much higher.       Much of the discussion about safety was from law enforcement who were concerned about accidental discharge with striker fired weapons.    Either when they unholstered or aimed the weapon at a potential threat.      Seems to me like the answer to that is not put your finger in the trigger until you intend to shoot it.    In a way a charging bear or cougar is pretty much the same thing as a criminal pulling out a weapon.    Seems like the threat is more important than routing safety concerns unless you shoot yourself in the process.      Anyone else have any thoughts?    

 

I personally have a love for da/sa handguns but the modern striker fired guns are very safe to carry with a round in the chamber.  The key is having a proper holster, I like the hybrid style myself Foxx brand in specific.  I alternate depending on the day on whether I'm carrying a da/sa or a striker gun.  My own bias won't allow me to carry a sa handgun, I don't like the idea of having to disengage the safety or rack the slide should I need my weapon... and carrying a sa with the hammer down isn't any quicker than switching off a safety.... your mileage may vary.

Edited by Old Time Lifter

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Huntster
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14 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

.......Anyone else have any thoughts?........

 

I hate SA/DA triggers in semi-auto handguns. This is the type of trigger that draws the hammer back with your first round, then the hammer is cocked with subsequent rounds being fired and cycling the action. The single action trigger squeeze is floppy by mechanical nature. Jeff Cooper called them crunchentickers.

 

But I also don’t like carrying a single action weapon in Condition One. They’re GREAT in completion or to carry into sure combat, but carrying it around is simply asking for an unintentional discharge.

 

Unlike rifles, sidearms are primarily carried for the express purpose of emergency defense. Both safety and unexpected readiness are key, in addition to enough power at close range to provide enough punch to the potential adversary. 

 

The double action only (DAO) trigger provides that strategic and mechanical balance. It requires a longer, heavier trigger pull than the single action trigger, it is uniform with every pull, the cartridge is not in danger of firing with the firing pin under spring tension held back only by a cog, and the technology has arrived at a point where current DAO triggers can be smoothed and tuned so that, with a bit of practice, one can achieve near SAO accuracy and speed. I have personally observed a security guard with a double action 38 revolver defeat a dozen other cops and guards with 1911’s in head-to-head competition. He made a believer out of me.

 

When I lost my precious 357 magnum revolver (Baby) on a hunting trip, I replaced her with a Glock 20. The 10mm cartridge provides MORE energy, the magazine quite literally provides more than 3 times the firepower, it only weighs 25% more than Baby (and more than 25% less than a 1911 or 629), can mount a light from the factory, can easily mount tritium sights, and now trigger parts are widely available to smooth and tune it like a 1911. And the Glocks are CHEAP! I just bought a new Glock 21 for $550. Tritium sights, trigger parts, and an extended slide lock release lever cost another $115. No gunsmithing costs since it’s all easy to install with UTube guidance, including the smoothing of factory parts.

 

It was a no brainer decision for me.

 

......Huntster sounds like the Kodiak Island deer hunt is some sort of self funded  government feed the bears programs.     You get hunters to pay to be the food source.[/quote)

 

Whenever there is a poor salmon run or bad berry crop, the bears get ugly. It’s just a fact of nature. I’d still rather living with bears than living with snakes.

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SWWASAS

Your mention of loss of your 357 reminds me of when I lost mine (for a while).    That was one of my strange occurrences events.    I was carrying it in a snapped holster.    This was in the area where a claim of a night BF sighting had been done on a national radio show.   I got out of the truck,  put on the holster and followed a faint trail back into the brush on the ridge above where the sighting had supposedly occurred.  The area from which the BF in the report had come down off the mountain.      No particular tracks but just a track through the brush that had seen some passage with broken limbs and signs of disturbance.     During dry season but lack of deer tracks was interesting.     Anyway the going got tougher and tougher and I was scrambling over and under down wood and the bush whacking got so bad I decided to back out and head back to my truck.    I was parked in an open area,   one used quite a bit, when people came up to shoot.     My intention was just to drive down below next and see if I could see any tracks down by the river, so I just kept the holster on since it was only a couple of miles.        When I got down to the river, my gun was not in the holster when I got out.    Not under or in the car.    I figured I had dropped it when I was scrambling through and over the down wood so headed back above to the trail I had been on, knowing it would be very difficult to find.    When I pulled up to where I had parked,   the gun was laying on the ground in plain sight right at the edge of the bush line.    I was puzzled because I did not remember parking where it was and should have seen it when I backed away to leave.         I expected that it would be covered with dirt but other than some dust on the bottom it was pretty much dirt free.     One would think a gun would make a impression dropping into the soft ground from three  and a half feet,  but it looked like it had been placed there.     I was of course overjoyed finding it.     As I drove off I could not shake the feeling it had been found and left for me to find when I came back.     While that is not likely,   what bothered me at the thought, was for a period of time,  the gun was available for a BF to possess.   They are scary enough unarmed, but an armed BF or gun available for a juvenile BF to play with is even more scary.       

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