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WSA

Lost Kingdom of the Yeti

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WSA

Roger that about the thumbs, according to at least one witness...the guy in a tree stand who saw one sucker punch a wild hog on the Sabine River. One that gave him a very human expression of surprise and acknowledgment when it saw him. 

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SWWASAS
6 hours ago, WSA said:

I think what always will stand in our way is we lack the intrinsic ability to imagine a degree of consciousness other than our own...which is a comfortable mindset when you are referencing "dumb" animals like lizards and wallabies. Not so useful when talking about an animal that is probably only a smidge off of our total DNA, and (except for being hirsute and larger) pretty much one of "us".  How different is their consciousness from ours? THAT is the only question I really care about . 

 

So, I'm left to wonder, do they not embrace technologies like we have because they can't, or is it as simple as they have no evolutionary drive to do it?  When you think about it, you realize if something is supremely adapted to an existing environment, and are evolutionarily successful, why do you need that technology? We adapted through technology, I believe, because we were getting our butts kicked out there on the savannah, scavenging hyena carcasses and huddling at the top of trees at night. By all indications, Sasquatch never had that vulnerability.  You might even predict WE developed technology mainly to defend our genes from animals like Sasquatch, and maybe even them specifically.      

Your query about the differences between humans and BF caused me to have a couple of thoughts.     BF seems to prefer to live in forested areas some of which in the Pacific Northwest are rain forests.   Human developed fire use early in the savannas mostly like as protection against the large predators so they would not have to spend nights in trees.   Initially fire use was likely use of existing fire without any capability to light it.     Most likely it was carried around for hundreds of thousands of years.     Then it became so important that mankind learned how to make it.     Put early man in the PNW and once lightning stops making fire in summer and fall and the rains start, there would be no fire until the next summer.      Man knew how to make fire when he got to North America.   That would certainly limit BF ability to have and use fire if he did not use it before coming or had been here far longer than humans.   .   Add in the BF nomadic factor, and the reluctant to show their presence to man, and fire use becomes very problematic.    A nomad needs to know how to make fire.     Additionally during the rainy/ snow season making fire is very difficult even for modern man with matches or flint and steel.   The First Peoples tribes of the PNW had pretty much permanent or seasonal camps and were not nomadic so fires burned night and day.      

 

  Lets look at clothing.     Lack of that makes people like Meldrum declare BF lacks cultural artifacts.     But the experience of Lewis and Clark wintering at Fort Klatsup brings into question its use in that climate.    The leather clothing of the expedition was literally rotting off of the men in the damp camp.     Certainly BF does not need clothing in the temperate and hot months and has less need in the winter than humans.    Blankets of hides or nests of vegetation might be of better use in this wet climate than clothing which wants to rot off when BF has natural hair covering.    .    

Edited by SWWASAS

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hiflier

It may be more basic that that SWWASAS. Being a completely hair-covered creature they may have a archetypal fear of fire. We certainly do mostly because when uncontrolled fire can kill. Hair burns so the fear of fire may have intercepted any thought of creating it. I have often wonder just how Man went from taking advantage of natural fire events to finding out that a spark from a rock, or the heat from rubbing wood together would create fire. The point being just how did early Man put that together? What actually happened that day in order for that light bulb lit up in our ancestors? Was someone rubbing two sticks to together for some other reason and felt the heat generated on their surfaces? Decided to keep rubbing until they became too hot to touch? Kept going until they saw a little smoke" and kept going until they burst into a small flame? How about using a stick in a twisting motion to make a powder for creating face paint and saw smoke coming from the end? 

 

Our ancestors may have carried fire around with them, fueling it as they went from place to place for centuries as you say. But at some point I think it the knowledge of how to actually create it happened very quickly. It also may have happened during a ceremony and the 'witch doctor' could have suddenly become a very powerful person. It would have also struck fear in groups that had no fire to see another group approaching that was wielding fire. Those groups must have wondered where the other group gotten their fire? Could have been a real shock and awe moment made even more so if there had been no lightning around for several weeks? And if our ancestors had carried fire from place to place what did they transport it on, or in? A log perhaps?

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MIB
5 hours ago, hiflier said:

Does the morphology of the hand show a thumb placement that is NOT Human? I mean, aren't the base of Sasquatch thumbs supposed to be located farther back when compared to a Human's?

 

Reports conflict and the proponents of each perspective seem equally adamant they are correct.    I didn't get a close look at the hands so for me the jury remains out.   I speculate that they might not all be the same.  Reports suggest two types, one with more human-ish features and more refined vocal skills, one with more ape-ish features and less refined vocal skills, both traveling together at least at times, so it would not surprise me if there were also two at least somewhat different hand morphologies.  

 

I don't know.  I'm curious.   I'm not accepting either answer as final 'til I get a better look for myself.  :)

 

MIB

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hiflier
43 minutes ago, MIB said:

I'm not accepting either answer as final 'til I get a better look for myself.  :)

 

 Heh, wouldn't mind a better look myself- if it ever happens that is.

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SWWASAS

Good points hiflier.    I had not even thought about the danger to greasy hair covered creature messing with fire.   One ember and they likely would burst into flame.   They are not known to store water so that makes messing with fire even more dangerous.  

 

     A fire starter stick or stick and bow is basically a drill.    It is likely some human craftsman got smoke just drilling a hole with a sharp wood stick.     It can be done with bare hands with great difficulty but when a bow is used it really generates a lot more heat.     Or like you say drilling into minerals to get some pigment for decoration.    Most human discoveries are accidental.    That puff of smoke would be some sort of miracle for a culture that previously had to carry fire around or find it to use it.    And like most human discoveries many are ignored by the discoverer because they do not realize the significance of what they just observed.    I have wondered if BF just does not have a creation gene.     Humans like to make things.   First it was weapons, then clothing, and then containers for food and water.   After the practical stuff for survival they took to making art.     We like to make stuff.       If it took human craftsmen to discover fire drilling holes in things,  a BF not into making things would never have the experience.   Had humans not been able to fabricate clothing, we likely would not have survived the last ice age. 

 

I recall someone got a pretty good muddy hand print on the side of a vehicle.   Not sure it was this or another forum but a picture was posted.        That should show the morphology of their thumb.     Only hand print I have found was a knuckle prints when one slipped on some mud.   

Edited by SWWASAS

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WSA

I also tend to think the fire drill was first used as just a drill, yeah. The chicken-or-egg question though is how/why were they having leisure time to fashion items requiring a drill without the firelight/cooking leisure time to do it? Would love to get in the way-back machine and find out what that moment...or likely many similar moments....looked like. The two stick method/fire plough could have proceeded that too. The motivation? Well, it could be as simple as thinking the polished surface it creates was aesthetically pleasing. We as a species just love to take our hands and change something from one state or condition to another. It tickles our brains. If there were a Homo lounging around in the shade away from the afternoon heat, idly rubbing two hardened sticks against each other to make them smooth, and then touched that surface? Wait a minute.....!

 

Maybe BF lacks that brain-tickle gene. What tickles its brain apparently is stacking logs on top of other logs and throwing rocks and other stuff. To each his own.    

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SWWASAS

Well unless BF has vast underground tunnel systems with comfy sleeping rooms stashed with their stuff carved out of solid rock for them by aliens  (which some actually believe)  there is little evidence they fabricate much of anything.      Braiding horse mains,   bird like nests,  some twisted bark,   tepee stacks, and  stick and rock glyphs now and then seem to be the extent of it.    If they are of genus homo, they are the most primitive we know about as far as fabrication.   Human ancestors have been making weapons and other tools for at least a million years.   Assuming BF evolved with humans, which has to have happened,    at some point we must have taken a hard turn left to technology and fabrication, leaving them bewildered at what their small nearly naked relatives were up to.    Every passing day of our mutual existence, we leave them further and further behind.  If they cannot fabricate they also cannot understand what is fabricated.      

Edited by SWWASAS

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hiflier

Heating the ends of sticks. How about discovering that the ends of sticks heated or warmed up when fashioning a reasonable long stick with a diameter suitable for a spear? In a savanna where rocks may be at a premium the only hard enough surface to create a point on might just be a tree. Or a dead log from a tree. The spear material is soft? The log is not? I can imagine that rubbing the 'green' wood of the spear would heat it up rather quickly.

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WSA

Good "point" Hiflier, yes.  That probably was the genesis of the original fire plough. Many scenarios imaginable, which probably leads to the conclusion that friction fire was discovered in multiple locations, under multiple conditions. Don't forget digging tools also. You hit some ferrous deposits with your flint digging tool/scraper ? Bingo!  Some of these must have been enacted by BF, who apparently lacks the intuitive skill to make that leap in logic.  We know from accounts that BF apparently know that when wood is put in a fire, it is consumed. At least it appears they know that or they wouldn't bother placing wood or throwing sticks into a fire. Maybe they just mimic what they probably see us doing, a lot.

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Arvedis
On 11/7/2018 at 7:16 PM, WSA said:

Thanks Boquk. That was what I wanted to know. I got pulled away at the end and couldn’t find out what the resolution was. This was a fairly well produced travelogue and the scenery was featured to really nice effect. Check it out if you haven’t. 

 

So so how many times do DNA samples need to come back as human, or humanesque before the idea starts to penetrate? The evidence of the use of language alone....

 

 

Didn't see the documentary and didn't do any research on the clues mentioned in this thread.  What was the DNA source in the footprint?  hair?  If so, that is problematic as that will typically not provide anything definitive (not my opinion, many have tried and failed going this route).  Also, I am unclear on the role of water samples you mentioned.

 

Are there additional details to the genetic investigation?

 

Edited by Arvedis

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WSA

^^^^^^It was an environmental DNA sample, which was the really compelling aspect. No hair, fluid or tissue sample involved.... at least not directly. The water sample, many liters of it, was filtered through a collection device and the DNA captured by it was then sequenced. The footprints were in snow, and presumably the DNA found was from shed skin cells.  As with all DNA evidence, the lack of a type specimen only allows this to go so far. It will never be proof without one. 

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Arvedis

Personally, I am highly skeptical of skin cells from a footprint. Useful DNA from that would be old by the time a forensic swab was taken. Not saying impossible but sounds suspect. I'm curious now and will research this further.

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