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The Actual Developing Of The Pgf (3)

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Squatchy McSquatch

I guess I’ll go bother Dundas Library. Again. :)

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PBeaton

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Backdoc

After reading the last 2 pages of posts here:

 

Couldn't it be said that both Frank Ish. and L. Tall could have both developed the film had the wanted to?  Am I reading all this right?   Isn't Frank Ish stating why he thinks L. Tall wouldn't do it but at no time states he couldn't do it?   It seems any doubt Frank has about Tall totally rule- related and not any 'they didn't have the means'-related?

 

Limited by means = impossible if you don't have the means.

Limited by rules =  Just need a person to break the rules.

 

I don't take any sides here.  I am learning a lot from this thread though.

 

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PBeaton
On 2/20/2019 at 10:47 AM, OldMort said:

^^^ I think that HMB's new information has cleared up many of the misconceptions that have been offered here as far as a weekend processing in Seattle.

 

 "Frank was very clear in his belief when he stated, “I had the only Kodachrome processing operation in the state of Washington. The nearest other Kodachrome processing lab was in San Francisco”. 

 

Backdoc,

 

That's how I read it, they were both capable of developin' it based on the new info.

 

OldMort had mentioned he felt HOLDMYBEER's new information/posts suggested that it was unlikely that the PGF was developed in Seattle the weekend of Oct. 20th-22nd. (If I'm wrong OldMort, feel free ta chime in.)

 

I found 3 pieces of information kinda interestin', Ishihara had said Tall could both develop Kodachrome film on his own as well as the only other person who could develop film outside regular workin' hours. The 3rd piece I found interestin' is how many times Ishihara brought up how he thought Tall wouldn't jeopardize his contract with Kodak for fear of loosin' his license with them.

 

"..the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall."   

 

"Frank indicated that Leonard Tall was the only other individual at the Technicolor lab capable of processing a Kodachrome film outside of normal hours."

 

1- So, we have a guy who had access to a lab capable of developin' Kodachrome.

2- We have a guy who could develop Kodachrome by himself.

3- We have a guy that had a good reason for not wantin' it known he developed the film, if it would jeopardize his contract with Kodak as Ishihara repeatedly mentions. 

 

Now to me, that suggest it was possible the film could have been developed that weekend in Seattle by Tall. I'm not sayin' he did, I'm just sayin' it was possible. 

 

When I asked OldMort if Tall could have developed the PGF that weekend, he said "No, I don't think so Pat." 

 

Pat...

 

 

Edited by PBeaton
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MIB
36 minutes ago, PBeaton said:

When I asked OldMort if Tall could have developed the PGF that weekend, he said "No, I don't think so Pat." 

 

Yeah.  I'm very curious why he responded that he believed Tall could not have done it.  Not merely did not, but could not.   I'd like more explanation for could not if possible.

 

MIB

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PBeaton

MIB,

I'm curious as well. To me, based on Ishihara's own statements, Tall could. That is why I asked "if he could develop it" on that weekend, my thinkin' is he could, he had both the means an knowledge to do so. I was plannin' a follow up question, which would have been...Then wasn't it possible ?

 

Pat...

 

 

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Twist
On 2/17/2019 at 9:20 PM, HOLDMYBEER said:

B-THE OWNER WOULDN’T RISK THE INVESTMENT

 

Frank explained how the license purchased from Kodak bound Technicolor to a multi-faceted agreement. The agreement was actually for the protection of both the licensee and Kodak. It allowed Kodak to perform on-site inspection and certification of the laboratory, the logging of all films processed by the laboratory and making the logs available for periodic review, and monitoring of the lab by Kodak to assure chemicals and equipment and trained personnel were used by the lab in keeping with predefined operational standards. Kodak was also required to make certain chemicals and precursor materials available to the licensee. He explained that violating the agreement could potentially jeopardize the license and of course any investment associated with the license. Frank believed Leonard Tall, the owner, would never jeopardize his considerable investment and Technicolor’s license by allowing the use of the lab outside the confines of the license protocol and agreement. Certainly, any employee caught violating the protocols would be terminated.

 

Frank said the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall. Frank said he knew Tall well and that Tall would never consider processing a film outside the requirements of the protocol. 

 

 

Here, from HMB's post is why Tall would not break protocol and process this film all rogue style.It was pretty spelled out in his post. There was protocol to process it on Saturday, no need to go rogue.  This was not a snuff film, it was not top secret.  It was a blurry BF maybe caught on film by two cowboys, supposedly set up and paid for by a man who had little faith in them in the first place?  

 

So does Big AL call in a major favor with a big shot in the NW photo business to produce a film after hours secretly in his studio when he himself has stated he does not believe it's legit?   Per SY on here Al has always maintained doubt in the film.   How much did Al pay Tall to process a film secretly in an expedited manor that he did not believe in?  Also, WHY ??? A film he did not believe in needed, no HAD, to be viewed on Sunday?  

 

I'm reminded of they Office Space game, "Jump to Conclusions" 😣

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OldMort
2 hours ago, PBeaton said:

When I asked OldMort if Tall could have developed the PGF that weekend, he said "No, I don't think so Pat." 

 

 

Yes, you asked me for my opinion and I gave you one.

 

You may ask then; what I am basing my opinion on? 

 

 I am basing it on the testimony of someone who actually worked there at that time and is/was our last remaining witness regarding the operation of the lab in question as well as its protocols and policies.

 

Pat, you seem very fond of this quote, you have posted it several times now;  

 

"Frank said the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall." 

 

Why haven't you posted the next sentence, you know the one that completes the thought and the statement. Here it is:

 

"Frank said he knew Tall well and that Tall would never consider processing a film outside the requirements of the protocol."

 

Here they are together as originally written: "Frank said the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall. Frank said he knew Tall well and that Tall would never consider processing a film outside the requirements of the protocol."

 

So, from a man who worked in close conjunction with Leonard and knew him well, Tall would "never consider" let alone actually process a film outside of the necessary protocol. That protocol being that any "special processing"  would be performed by Ishihara and his staff or by both Tall and Ishihara. Which takes us back to the fact that Kodachrome processing was very complex and in order to process it safely and successfully, it normally required a full staff or at minimum a skeleton crew of at least 2 highly competent individuals. Sure, both men were "capable" of processing a film alone as they were both among the most knowledgeable people in their field at that time, but more importantly they were also both fully aware of the risks of doing so. You only have one shot at it. It was not just a matter of "some guy" coming in, putting it on a machine and an hour later, magically you have a beautifully developed film. 

 

Here's what Ishihara says about that: "Frank said operation of the lab was complicated enough and involved enough people that it made no sense for someone to keep any processing a clandestine operation. Their lab had procedures in place for after-hours processing and the staff would have been very happy to do a professional job for a fee. Working outside lab policies could risk a mistake that would invoke a violation of the license with Kodak. Frank said, “ Leonard Tall would not risk losing the process for a few hundred bucks by letting someone else other than my team run it. Then, there is no covering up a screw-up”.

 

The film couldn't have been processed October 21, 1967 since the policies and protocols at a minimum, required Ishihara's presence. That, according to Frank never happened that day...

Was the whole "special processing" urgency extravaganza even necessary in the first place? The film wasn't even viewed until late in the day on Sunday. The film could have easily been processed that same evening and been ready for viewing on Monday morning at a very minimal cost.

 

I trust HMB's write-up and I trust Ishihara's words and instead of twisting them I will take them at face value until proven differently. 

 

My apologies for the lengthy response.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by OldMort
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PBeaton
2 hours ago, OldMort said:

 

Yes, you asked me for my opinion and I gave you one.

You may ask then; what I am basing my opinion on? 

You may have offered one, as you can read, I wasn't the only one curious. Thank you for the explanation.

 

Quote

 I am basing it on the testimony of someone who actually worked there at that time and is/was our last remaining witness regarding the operation of the lab in question as well as its protocols and policies.

So am I.

 

Quote

Pat, you seem very fond of this quote, you have posted it several times now;  

"Frank said the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall." 

Why haven't you posted the next sentence, you know the one that completes the thought and the statement. Here it is:

"Frank said he knew Tall well and that Tall would never consider processing a film outside the requirements of the protocol."

OldMort, this is from my first post regardin' the matter...

"I find it interestin' Ishihara mentioned Leonard Tall contacted him on a Friday night, the two went in on Saturday an developed a film. Ishihara said..."Tall was the only other individual at the Technicolor lab capable of processing a Kodachrome film outside of normal hours.",  he simply didn't think Tall would risk doin' it for fear of messin' up an loosin' their licensin' with kodak. Which we all know, you get somethin' done on the downlow or on the side...you don't have those same guarantees as on the up an up.

Well...a claim that was or wasn't possible...depends how you look at it."

 

Quote

Here they are together as originally written: "Frank said the only person other than himself at Technicolor capable of processing Kodachrome film without assistance was his boss Leonard Tall. Frank said he knew Tall well and that Tall would never consider processing a film outside the requirements of the protocol."

An since I brought it up, here's some quotes I brought up regardin Ishihara an his thoughts on how serious breakin' protocol would be for Tall. I think it's safe to say I let his thoughts on the matter be know.  

 

"..he simply didn't think Tall would risk doin' it for fear of messin' up an loosin' their licensin' with kodak."

 

"Ishihara also makes mention of the license Tall purchased from Kodak, that came with a great many stipulations on developin' film etc..

Is it possible that is the reason for keepin' the person an location of developin' a secret, so it wouldn't jeopardize his licensin' agreement with Kodak ?"

 

"Frank explained how the license purchased from Kodak bound Technicolor to a multi-faceted agreement. The agreement was actually for the protection of both the licensee and Kodak. It allowed Kodak to perform on-site inspection and certification of the laboratory, the logging of all films processed by the laboratory and making the logs available for periodic review, and monitoring of the lab by Kodak to assure chemicals and equipment and trained personnel were used by the lab in keeping with predefined operational standards. Kodak was also required to make certain chemicals and precursor materials available to the licensee. He explained that violating the agreement could potentially jeopardize the license and of course any investment associated with the license. Frank believed Leonard Tall, the owner, would never jeopardize his considerable investment and Technicolor’s license by allowing the use of the lab outside the confines of the license protocol and agreement. Certainly, any employee caught violating the protocols would be terminated."

 

"Ishihara even mentions violatin' that contact could jeopardize his license an thus his business. Why do you think Ishihara brought that up ? "

 

"Working outside lab policies could risk a mistake that would invoke a violation of the license with Kodak."

 

"Could Kodak protocol be for the reason Ishihara mentioned .."Working outside lab policies could risk a mistake that would invoke a violation of the license with Kodak." 

 

"Ishihara said he didn't think Tall would risk loosin' his license by doin' somethin' so risky, "

 

 

Quote

So, from a man who worked in close conjunction with Leonard and knew him well, Tall would "never consider" let alone actually process a film outside of the necessary protocol. That protocol being that any "special processing"  would be performed by Ishihara and his staff or by both Tall and Ishihara. Which takes us back to the fact that Kodachrome processing was very complex and in order to process it safely and successfully, it normally required a full staff or at minimum a skeleton crew of at least 2 highly competent individuals. Sure, both men were "capable" of processing a film alone as they were both among the most knowledgeable people in their field at that time, but more importantly they were also both fully aware of the risks of doing so. You only have one shot at it. It was not just a matter of "some guy" coming in, putting it on a machine and an hour later, magically you have a beautifully developed film.

I also brought this up multiple times if I recall OldMort...

 

"For the government job, he brought in Ishihara, perhaps that was part of the contract with Kodak, that the process was not to be done alone for liability reasons. Again, Ishihara has said... "Working outside lab policies could risk a mistake that would invoke a violation of the license with Kodak.""

 

"Could Kodak have required processing film to be a two man job(liability), as described by Ishihara when the two men went in an developed film on a Saturday ?  "

 

"We have a guy that had a good reason for not wantin' it known he developed the film, if it would jeopardize his contract with Kodak as Ishihara repeatedly mentions."

 

Quote

 Here's what Ishihara says about that: "Frank said operation of the lab was complicated enough and involved enough people that it made no sense for someone to keep any processing a clandestine operation. Their lab had procedures in place for after-hours processing and the staff would have been very happy to do a professional job for a fee. Working outside lab policies could risk a mistake that would invoke a violation of the license with Kodak. Frank said, “ Leonard Tall would not risk losing the process for a few hundred bucks by letting someone else other than my team run it. Then, there is no covering up a screw-up”. Ishihara also says

Ishihara also said he was capable of developin' Kodachrome on his own as well as the only other one who could develop film after hrs.(no need to quote it again)

 

Quote

The film couldn't have been processed October 21, 1967 since the policies and protocols at a minimum, required Ishihara's presence. That, according to Frank never happened that day...

Was the whole "special processing" urgency extravaganza even necessary in the first place? The film wasn't even viewed until late in the day on Sunday. The film could have easily been processed that same evening and been ready for viewing on Monday morning at a very minimal cost.

Actually the film could have been processed October 21, 1967. As I've mentioned, we know Tall had both the means an knowledge to process the film on his own on October 21, 1967, an as you an I both noted, mentioned an quoted...could jeopardize his contract/license with Kodak. Which as I've suggested is the perfect reason he wouldn't want it know, an thus wantin' it kept a secret.

 

Quote

I trust HMB's write-up and I trust Ishihara's words and instead of twisting them I will take them at face value until proven differently. 

As do I trust HOLDMYBEER's notes on the matter. I also trust Ishihara's words as well, but I don't think I'm twistin' them OldMort. Ishihara constantly says Tall "wouldn't" risk it or take that chance etc, which isn't definitive, it's subjective, he doesn't know Tall didn't or he would have said it.  Were you choose to say it couldn't have been processed on October 21st 1967 because of somethin' unknown, I see that unknown as it's still possible. Am I wrong OldMort, or do you actually know Tall didn't process the film ? Thus...possible.

 

Quote

My apologies for the lengthy response.

Ditto.

 

Pat...

Edited by PBeaton

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OldMort

^^^ Pat, I offered you my opinion based on HMB"s interview with Ishihara as well as on the communications I have had with HMB over the last couple of years.

 

I have agreed with other members here that none of this evidence can be or should be taken as certain and factual proof either way. It is testimony that we apparently all interpret differently.

 

You asked me a tough question the other day and I had to think about it a long time before responding, and I thank you for that.

"Simple yes or no question. Could Tall have developed the PGF on that October weekend in question?"

 

Its hardly a simple yes or no question :no:. Based on Ishihara's remarks  I don't think it can be stated either that "it could" or "it couldn't" have been done with any factual certainty and that is why I found it difficult to answer a question which requires such a black and white response. There are shades of grey. There is subjectivity. There is much left to know.

 

I don't know the answer.

 

Instead I offered you my opinion which is based on my own personal knowledge and on my assessment of the testimony and evidence, "no, I don't think so."

 

I explained why in my previous post.

 

That's the direction I lean right now. It is not intended as a statement of fact.

 

My honest opinion is of no more or no less value than anyone else's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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PBeaton

OldMort,

 

Just as I offered my opinion on both Twist's an your posts(below). Yas mentioned the new HOLDMYBEER info suggested the PGF wasn't processed in Seattle, I disagreed pointin' it out rather simply usin' what Ishihara said.

 

On 2/19/2019 at 5:14 PM, Twist said:

Concerning the information provided by HMB, the actual developing of the film seems very unlikely in a private lab or any type of weekend processing in the NW.   Does that mean it had to go south to San Francisco for processing? 

 

On 2/20/2019 at 10:47 AM, OldMort said:

^^^ I think that HMB's new information has cleared up many of the misconceptions that have been offered here as far as a weekend processing in Seattle.

Also, having confirmation from Frank that the film could have been processed Sunday night and been ready for viewing Monday morning, kills any notion that it was processed earlier on Sunday at great cost (hundreds or possibly even thousands of $'s) as well as risk.

 

On 2/22/2019 at 6:45 PM, Twist said:

To me, Frank has basically stated this film was not developed in the NW  during that weekend. I believe him.   I'm more inclined to believe it was produced a week or less before.  For whatever reason, the timeline was fabricated.  

 

 

Lastly we have...

9 hours ago, OldMort said:

I have agreed with other members here that none of this evidence can be or should be taken as certain and factual proof either way. It is testimony that we apparently all interpret differently.

I have others members here that apparently agree with me regardin' the evidence presented, the possibility remains.

It's why I found your below post rather ironic when I suggested it was still possible.

As long as it is unknown, fact is...it was possible...in my opinion. 

 

On 2/23/2019 at 5:25 PM, OldMort said:

Its all good Twist... Its to be expected.

When the confirmation bias kicks in and the wagon circling begins, its always a sure sign that an uncomfortable truth has finally been realized.

cherry-picking-salesforce-cases-01.png.42bce3949ad7d85c7016e5dd3d56dab1.png

 

Pat...

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Backdoc

Frank Ishihara:

 

Worked in the industry and knows the limitation of development back in 1967.   Is fairly confident the film was not developed on a Saturday in the PNW.

 

Skeptics say we must listen to him as what he says somehow proves the PGF is a hoax.  Why?  Because he is an expert of the era.

 

 

Jonas Prohaska:

 

Worked in the industry and knows the limitations of 1967 era materials.

 

States the PGF is not a man in a suit.   Skeptics tell us we don't have to listen to him even though he is an expert of the era.  Interesting isn't it?

 

 

 

Look Frank is a learned guy and his opinion deserves respect and consideration.  We just need to keep in mind what he is saying and what he is not saying and both sides need to be honest about it.  Sadly what we have is what we have as he has passed away.  We need to consider many of his thoughts are 30,40 + years after the fact as well. 

 

 

Even though I doubt Frank developed the PGF, did anyone ever ask him outright if he did?  If he did, was he really going to say he did even 45-50 years later just before he died?

 

 

 

 

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MikeZimmer
23 minutes ago, Backdoc said:

 We need to consider many of his thoughts are 30,40 + years after the fact as well. 

 

 

 

Again and again on this forum, I see people who expect  decades old memories to be crisp and accurate. Since a lot of the posters here seem to be older, you would think that they would routinely take that into account.

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MIB
17 hours ago, Twist said:

Here, from HMB's post is why Tall would not break protocol and process this film all rogue style.

 

Please lay out in detail exactly what was in the contract.    Then explain, since it was already shown that they did, by exception, develop film outside normal operating hours, how would doing so again violate the contract?   I'd like to know.   Thanks!

 

MIB

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Backdoc
3 minutes ago, MIB said:

 

Please lay out in detail exactly what was in the contract.    Then explain, since it was already shown that they did, by exception, develop film outside normal operating hours, how would doing so again violate the contract?   I'd like to know.   Thanks!

 

MIB

 

I thought someone said the Kodak contract required 2 people as some requirement be present.  Great Q.    I have no idea.  Again, great Q

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