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georgerm

Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?

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norseman
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3 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

I extracted the stick to see how far it was inserted into the log.   I did not see anything sticking to it.    I wonder if chimps spit on the stick when they probe?      I initially thought if was just a freaky situation where the wind blew it in there.    But ruled that out when I discovered how much was inside the log.  I like to leave things as I find them so I pushed it as far in as it would go and left it.   The log being as old as it was was getting pretty rotten but like you say,   I did not see signs of termites.       It is pretty accessible and when I am in the area I will take another look at it.  It could be that BF probed it, found nothing,   and just left the stick.    But if BF does that,  there should be other logs or stumps that can be probed for termites.    The tools they use seem to be tools of opportunity so they use and leave them since there are not a lot of reports of them seen to be carrying things.   


They use their teeth to fashion the stick. But the termites bite the stick attacking a unwanted intruder, is how the chimps get them out. But again that’s a subterranean termite mound where fishing works. Not wood termites. It would be much more efficient to just break the log apart like a Bear does. 

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Lam90
9 hours ago, Huntster said:

 

No, but a top quality drama/adventure based on the Patterson/Gimlin event, complete with a beginning that re-enacts the 1958-1967 regional events as well as the 1967-1972 period could be a big hit, especially with Gimlin still alive. There are plenty of documentaries. Don't need another one of those.


 

I might even go to a theater for that!

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the parkie
On 1/14/2020 at 10:02 PM, SWWASAS said:

That early date in North America brings into question the entire human record.    The only place human ancestors have been found older than that is Africa and Asia.    Nothing that ancient in Europe. 

 

Sorry, this is going back quite a bit in this thread, and you may now already be aware that there have been remains much older than 130,000 years found in Europe! Many examples are cited in this wikipedia article for instance. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominid_dispersals_in_Europe

 

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hiflier
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I'm thinking SWWASAS is referring to modern Humans which didn't arrive in Europe until 40,000 years ago. They were in Africa and the Levant before that. And you are correct, remains are found in Europe and elsewhere, but those remains were from other branches of Humans, not the 200,000 year old Cro-Magnons who were our direct ancestors

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SWWASAS

Hiflier is correct in that I was talking about modern humans.    The presence of any humans (modern or ancestral) in North America prior to 26,000 years ago is remarkable.   I attended a University of Oregon professor lecturer about a cave in South Central Oregon.   He has dated human presence in the cave back to 14,500 years ago and some evidence exists of habitation in the cave over 20,000 years ago.   That puts any migration into a time frame where a Bering crossing would not be thought possible.   His theory is that early humans had to arrive by boat because of the ice age glaciation.    You can see the reason for this if you take an Alaskan cruise, and see how the glaciers running into the Pacific are a formidable barrier to North to South land travel.    That is even more plausible because there is considerable hard evidence that the Japanese traveled to Aleutian Islands to get obsidian to make arrowheads.      Each volcano produces obsidian with unique chemical properties only found in that volcano.     So testing of Japanese obsidian point, found arrow points dated back to 26,000 years ago were found to have been collected in the Aleutian Islands and transported back to Japan.    Island hopping makes the trip to mainland North America very doable.    The Kennewick man find in Washington State was someone who seemed to have originated in NE Asia in that he had Japanese morphology.   .  That find started the backward slide of the timeline of human arrival into North America.   Who knows how far back that slide in time will go.  

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hiflier
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28 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

I attended a University of Oregon professor lecturer about a cave in South Central Oregon.   He has dated human presence in the cave back to 14,500 years ago and some evidence exists of habitation in the cave over 20,000 years ago.

 

This goes back to my point that archeologists are looking and digging everywhere all over this planet for clues and answers. The caves and lahars in the PacNW should be a good source of ancient DNA with "contaminated" Human DNA mixed in. Contaminated because Humans have also been in those caves looking for gold, minerals, shelter, studying bats, and looking for troglodytes, and just exploring. Who knows how many DNA samples have been tossed over the years because of it, especially since using e-DNA technology in caves. Scientists now know where the oldest, most preserved, DNA will likely be for researching into our Human past and shoring up their migration theories.

 

 

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SWWASAS

That cave apparently has been inhabited well over 20,000 years off and on.   Some inhabitants were to lazy to go outside to take a dump.    They found some hair that had been cut, that still had lice eggs attached to it.  

Edited by SWWASAS

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hiflier
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Yep, 20,000 year old human poop. Who knew. Makes me curious about BF evidence inside those places. Tough to determine if BF DNA is .2% (or less) of Human. Maybe even a tenth of a percent? How that small of a difference might be found in a genome would be pretty difficult. But at the same time the difference will be greater than us and Neanderthal so a reasonably good scientist should have much trouble seeing nearly-Human DNA as something other than Human. One might even think that Sasquatch DNA, though close, would be different enough to not be hidden within degraded Human DNA. I mean its genome may be close to Humans but really not all that close. Certainly not like Denisovans or other Human branches.

 

It makes me want to request from those doing that kind of research to tell the truth about what they know. Really hard for me to think no one knows ANYTHING? Anything at ALL? Not one micro-scrap of scientific DNA proof? Tough to accept something like that this day and age.

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SWWASAS

During the Paisley cave dig in Oregon,   they had people that did the archeological digging, and one person that was trained, dressed, and equipped to handle DNA evidence.   They would find a copulite,  withdraw, call in the DNA tech, who would extract it using their best protocols to avoid human DNA contamination.    I think they were about 80% successful in avoiding human contamination.    Much of the DNA finds they could date were in copulites.    The cave was very productive and preserved DNA well.  I would bet that any cave, lava tube, or similar shelter in Western Washington or Oregon would have had bigfoot habitation at some time in the past, if not recently.    The really old stuff in the Paisley cave was about 4 feet below surface level.    It periodically flooded from the nearby lake and deposits covered the floor on a recurring basis.      

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hiflier
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Title of this thread: "Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?"

 

Because everyone would rather work solo or in pairs HOPING for a sighting so they can say they saw one. Leaving proof to chance isn't working folks. The BFF currently has over 800 members scattered around North America with a few from elsewhere. Those are CURRENT members. How many total members have been here in the last ten years? A couple of thousand? The hard truth is that having no proof of existence is our fault. Not science's, OURS. With the progress the e-DNA has been making in the last twenty years we have had an avenue of scientific pursuit but no one has used it.

 

I see it this way, science has developed, and continues to develop, this technology. In a way, as far as Sasquatch goes, science has shot themselves in the foot by no longer giving itself an excuse to not go and test for this creature. Especially when, for academia at least, testing is so danged cheap.My goal is to coerce science into using the technology to end this debate. Don't you think it's time to use the best danged tool we have? What I don't understand is why more of you aren't seeing this and finding someone in academia to talk to about it.  

 

"Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?" Seriously ask yourselves that question, and be honest.  If you are honest, then you may find that there is no longer a good excuse. I'm calling science on this, and I'm calling you on it as well. Time for the two of you to join forces? Yep, I think so.

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Huntster
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22 minutes ago, hiflier said:

Title of this thread: "Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?"

 

Because everyone would rather work solo or in pairs HOPING for a sighting so they can say they saw one. Leaving proof to chance isn't working folks. ........

 

Works for me. And it's more than just saying that I saw one. I want the experience. Some of my grizzly bear sightings etched into my memory simply because of their magnificence. THAT'S what I want........

 

........"Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?" Seriously ask yourselves that question, and be honest.

  If you are honest, then you may find that there is no longer a good excuse. I'm calling science on this, and I'm calling you on it as well. Time for the two of you to join forces? Yep, I think so.

 

LOL........why do I need to join forces with the very people who have a duty to be looking into this, especially when they vociferously deny their responsibility? I have zero duty or responsibility in this field. I'm not going to fight those people.

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hiflier
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1 hour ago, Huntster said:

I'm not going to fight those people.

 

I am, Huntster. And to me it's no joke. Historically, it has been the public that has pushed science and the way they did it was to leave science with no alternative. It hasn't been easy trying to find a way to apply that kind of pressure. I don't think I have the upper hand here yet but my gut tells me that their own e-DNA technology will be their undoing. And I'm using their own research into the DNA history of primate evolution to bolster my case. It has just taken a while to put it all together in a way that science will take notice. And they will take notice because my arguments are based in their own world of historical genetics as well as their world of current genetics.

 

They have nowhere to turn and no more reason to cast a blind eye. Even an argument of no funding will fall apart because I have that base covered also. It's been interesting to work on ways to remove the underpinnings of the excuses given to us over the decades. Even science papers that came recently on finding unknown animals shores up my case. A couple of those papers have even used the term "cryptic". So, don't do whatever it is you, or anyone else, doesn't want to do. It doesn't matter one tiny bit. I'm used to flying solo in this crowd and, truth be known, I would rather not have anyone, other than myself, anywhere near this. Not Meldrum, not Disotell, not the Olympic Project....and definitely not Moneymaker, Dr. Mayor, or anyone else. No one. All they've done is botch things and play the game. And I'm tired of getting jerked around by the business behind Bigfoot.

Edited by hiflier

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Huntster
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I wish you well, but that's a fight I have no interest in whatsoever. 

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SWWASAS
19 hours ago, hiflier said:

 

I am, Huntster. And to me it's no joke. Historically, it has been the public that has pushed science and the way they did it was to leave science with no alternative. It hasn't been easy trying to find a way to apply that kind of pressure. I don't think I have the upper hand here yet but my gut tells me that their own e-DNA technology will be their undoing. And I'm using their own research into the DNA history of primate evolution to bolster my case. It has just taken a while to put it all together in a way that science will take notice. And they will take notice because my arguments are based in their own world of historical genetics as well as their world of current genetics.

 

They have nowhere to turn and no more reason to cast a blind eye. Even an argument of no funding will fall apart because I have that base covered also. It's been interesting to work on ways to remove the underpinnings of the excuses given to us over the decades. Even science papers that came recently on finding unknown animals shores up my case. A couple of those papers have even used the term "cryptic". So, don't do whatever it is you, or anyone else, doesn't want to do. It doesn't matter one tiny bit. I'm used to flying solo in this crowd and, truth be known, I would rather not have anyone, other than myself, anywhere near this. Not Meldrum, not Disotell, not the Olympic Project....and definitely not Moneymaker, Dr. Mayor, or anyone else. No one. All they've done is botch things and play the game. And I'm tired of getting jerked around by the business behind Bigfoot.

You are right about those that are anointed to be spokes persons for bigfoot.    Most are self anointed but accepted as experts just the same.     Should bigfoot be accepted like the mountain gorilla is, then the pool of expert speakers would rapidly dry up to those few who actually get in the field, like Fossey did,  establish contact  and find out something about the species.   .     Most of what is presented now is conjecture.     That they exist,  what they are, their origins,  their relationship to man,   all are conjectore that anyone can engage in,   speak at conferences,  write books,  tell stories,  have blogs, and most importantly people are making money from many aspects.     Most of that goes away with acceptance by science.   While your crusade for discovery is applaudable,   I am not sure that discovery would benefit bigfoot.    It will likely happen at some point anyway.  Might as well be you as anyone else,    The species would become mired in government red tape.   People like me, likely restricted from attempting contact,  and large chunks of woods become a forest preserve.     While much of what I do is conjecture,  I hope that some of it can be right,  and some of you recognize I was right.    I am pretty confident that BF uses infrasound,   something certainly does,  but tying it to BF could only be done by capturing one, and studying it in captivity.      Who knows perhaps that has been done,  and bigfoot deemed so dangerous because of what was found,   that the government thinks it best to ignore them rather that make them a tourist attraction or zoo exhibit.  

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georgerm
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On 2/21/2020 at 11:26 AM, SWWASAS said:

During the Paisley cave dig in Oregon,   they had people that did the archeological digging, and one person that was trained, dressed, and equipped to handle DNA evidence.   They would find a copulite,  withdraw, call in the DNA tech, who would extract it using their best protocols to avoid human DNA contamination.    I think they were about 80% successful in avoiding human contamination.    Much of the DNA finds they could date were in copulites.    The cave was very productive and preserved DNA well.  I would bet that any cave, lava tube, or similar shelter in Western Washington or Oregon would have had bigfoot habitation at some time in the past, if not recently.    The really old stuff in the Paisley cave was about 4 feet below surface level.    It periodically flooded from the nearby lake and deposits covered the floor on a recurring basis.      

 

How do we get past the DNA testing that always points to human contamination? We discussed markers that need to be looked at during a more exhaustive DNA analysis. The markers should point to another kind of primate other than humans. Once this is determined, then looking for bigfoot DNA evidence in caves is logical. Just don't dig around and find the cave is inhabited by a cranky bigfoot! 

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