Popular Post hiflier Posted June 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 22, 2020 Can it be done? If so, how would one accomplish it? The first thing to know might be what does science look for in a sample? Should samples be from soil or water? Or both? What materials are needed and where would people get the materials? How much would they cost? Where would one send a sample? And there a few other questions that people have and have asked. So this thread is to explore this technology and, on a more serious tack, figure out a way to get samples from the field and have them tested. This is the basic procedure for water sampling along with some good information on materials: E-DNA USGS Field Sampling Protocols.pdf Here is a very recent article about detecting land mammals from water samples: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/researchers-detect-land-animals-using-dna-in-nearby-water-bodies-67481 If Sasquatch is in North America, then the links show that the creature CAN be detected by taking water samples,, and how best to collect those samples to reduce the risk of Human contamination- something that has wrecked a lot of DNA in the eyes of ourselves as well as science. There are excellent ways to avoid contamination. One good question is about the type of testing to be done. Is it one where the aim is to detected ALL creatures in a given location within a general habitat? Or does one target a specific species? This is an important question because it will come down to what type of lab would need to be secured to do the testing. Some say something like a Human ancestry company but most that I hear of charge around $200 to run a sample. And while they may tell you where your DNA came from it may not tell you your a Sasquatch. This thread is to discuss what should be sampled, where, why, and then where to send the sample(s) at what cost. And maybe later on what does one do with the results should results be forthcoming. And also which would be better, finding all animals or just target one, like primates. it could depend on which is cheaper, but more importantly, which method would be best for discovering Sasquatch. This really is a thread for Dr. Meldrum, Dr. Disotell, and Dr. Mayor, so forgive me if I stumble a few times because I'm not a scientist. We could start this off by submitting suggestions for where some field sampling could be done. I know of several off the top of my head but I'll leave it to members to offer suggestions. The biggie though? I will work on finding a lab or labs to do the testing.....and start saving my money 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) Upvote for you. I'd not play the game of sitting on suggestions. If you want to move this forward and catch attention of people who are out and might be willing to take samples and send them - I'd make this seem as cut and dry and easy as possible and not play to forum politics/etiquette. It's the same advice I gave months ago. What about soliciting help to gather all recent reports (under 5 years) where there are reports of a Sasquatch in, or interacting with, a body of water. Post the reports and let's see how many people are close and willing to go out and sample those bodies of water as close to sighting areas as possible. Theory would be that they might still be around and still interacting with those same bodies of water. If so, their unique DNA would show up according to everything I've read from you. It could be a good start to getting a decent number of samples going. Once we have the reports listed and, if there seems to be some potential likelihood of success with reports matched to volunteers to take samples - let's start a GoFundMe and members can donate for the cost of analysis for retrieved samples. Just an idea.... Edited June 22, 2020 by NatFoot 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWind Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) I don't have money to spend - going through a nasty divorce, but I won't go into it here. However, I would be willing to take a sample or three if and when @Madison5716 and I find more tracks by the lakeside. We have to wait until the fall unless we get lucky because that's when they drain the lakes and expose the mud flats. But that's when we have found prints in the past. Anyway, I am willing to invest time and gas, so count me in. Edited June 22, 2020 by NorthWind Tagging Madison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) Me collate the reports from the last five years? I have enough on my plate just with this. If you don't wish to corral the reports yourself and bring the data here, then maybe someone else is willing? I would like to look at this as a team effort. I've done months of solo work to get to this point and there's still a ways to go. For example, contacting these primatology labs to trying to get a dialogue going regarding accepting samples and cost will take some time. I'm doing it because someone asked me to find a lab, and there are many more labs out there than just those below. Evidently genetic primatology studies are here to stay: https://www.eva.mpg.de/primat/research-groups/molecular-genetics-laboratory/main-page.html https://www.gwprimategenomicslab.org/research https://www.ithaca.edu/news/monkeys-and-microbes-studied-ithaca-colleges-new-biosafety-lab https://anthropology.wustl.edu/primate-genetics-and-molecular-ecology-lab-pgame This is, at Arizona State University is an interesting site: http://www.primateproducts.com/blog/2016/10/17/genetic-testing-non-human-primates/ because it is linked to the products used for testing non-Human primates. So, there's plenty of work to be done now that I've reached a confident end to my research to date. @NorthWind thank you! Between yourself and Madison, Norseman, and wiiawiwb, that's four so far. And believe me when I say I will be looking at trying to find a zero-cost option. That's why the right dialogue to the right person at the right facility is so important. But then I think you all know that Again, my thanks. As a suggestion for something to think about? From what I've read and linked, taking a water sample from a water-filled footprint is probably the best source. I know people have said that such an artifact is virtually impossible to get a cast out of, but it may be a perfect situation for getting DNA. Edited June 22, 2020 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I didn't mean "you". There are some folks here who can whip up report lists with that type of criteria very quickly and have before for other analyses. So I know e-DNA is different than a DNA sample...but what about one of Bigtex's sotol chews soaked in water and then testing the water in the baggy in lieu of a river/lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I’ll grab samples from the western side of Michigan if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Well, technically e-DNA just means samples taken from the environment right? So DNA is DNA no matter the source. 4 minutes ago, NatFoot said: what about one of Bigtex's sotol chews soaked in water and then testing the water in the baggy in lieu of a river/lake. It's a fine idea, NatFoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRockBigfoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I would be willing to collect and send soil and water samples from the 4 areas where we have found possible signs of activity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Twist said: I’ll grab samples from the western side of Michigan if needed. If NEEDED? LOL, of course they will be needed, Twist. So cool that you'd be willing to do that. And I can't go further without thanking @norseman for initiating this. I have to say, the man has quite bit of some pull here Kudos to him for leading things off. He's a born-successful hunter and for him to endorse this says a lot. 8 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: I would be willing to collect and send soil and water samples from the 4 areas where we have found possible signs of activity. This is BIG folks. You had mentioned in the past , along with others, that you would do that. You and the rest need to definitely read this if you haven't already: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/researchers-detect-land-animals-using-dna-in-nearby-water-bodies-67481 because, as I've said many times, I think water samples will be the way to go on the basis that what ends up in the water comes from everything living around the water as well as what lives in it. Soil sample are okay but My gut tells me they are limited to something that has passed through a small area. Water on the other hand drains large areas and gets rain runoff. That makes water a natural DNA collector covering a lot of territory. Edited June 22, 2020 by hiflier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Well by needed I mean if we come up with some relatively recent sightings. I can grab samples from random lakes and waterways no problem but until more funding is available I’m guessing known hotspots or recent activity is front of the line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, Twist said: Well by needed I mean if we come up with some relatively recent sightings. I can grab samples from random lakes and waterways no problem but until more funding is available I’m guessing known hotspots or recent activity is front of the line. This is what I'm talking about. I'm assuming you'd be willing if someone came up with a report an hour or two from you with a BF in a creek with a pretty good idea of where the creek is in an area. I doubt you'd be willing to go into what would be assumed habitat and start sampling random creeks and lakes. IMO - the report list is the first step to making this a realistic project if we want everyone to chip in. I'd be willing to do help as well if we had a report that fit the criteria I laid out above. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 We are going to have to allow Hiflier the time to find a lab willing to do E DNA samples. And enough time to raise the money to pay for the lab. And the chosen lab is going to have to line researchers out on protocol for taking the samples. I think the Go fund me idea is an awesome idea. I personally would like to see samples go through a transparent chain of custody WITH results posted in the end. For example. ///////////////////////////////////// Sample # 2367 Researcher: Bob Smith Contact info: Address/Phone number Date: 10-25-20 Location: Pend Oreille River, Lat/Long Comments: I have recorded audio of whoops in this location before. SSR has reported 3 sightings within a 10 mile radius over the past 5 years. Sample # 2367 Collector: Bill Jones Contact info: Address/Phone number Date: 11-2-20 Lab: Horizon Laboratories Inc. 12345 Pine Ave, Denver, Co 76543 Comments: Sent off Fed Ex ground today. Sample # 2367 Researcher: Bob Smith Date: 12-16-20 Lab: Horizon Laboratories Inc. 12345 Pine Ave, Denver, Co 76543 Lab Results: Rainbow Trout, Northern Pike, Beaver, Black Bear, Whitetail Deer. Comments: Did not sequence plant life per request. /////////////////////////////////////////// I think many researchers get disillusioned over the years by sending in samples only to not hear anything back at all. I think in order to keep people engaged people need feedback. Even if it’s not the target species we are looking for. People will feel better about their work if they see results. If this technology is as good as they say it is? Using the grass roots approach? Hundreds of researchers submitting hundreds of samples? Is going to cover a large chunk of real estate fairly quickly. If the beast exists? It cannot hide forever. And anyone can put on some rubber gloves and collect a water sample. It’s not rocket science. We have been stagnate for awhile now. Obviously what I’m doing isn’t working. This would be a new powerful tool for researchers to put in their tool belt. Who knows? We may get lucky! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRockBigfoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, NatFoot said: This is what I'm talking about. I'm assuming you'd be willing if someone came up with a report an hour or two from you with a BF in a creek with a pretty good idea of where the creek is in an area. I doubt you'd be willing to go into what would be assumed habitat and start sampling random creeks and lakes. IMO - the report list is the first step to making this a realistic project if we want everyone to chip in. I'd be willing to do help as well if we had a report that fit the criteria I laid out above. Setting up the region in which a particular member could respond to reports would be helpful. That way if one of us came across a promising recent report we could direct it to the person who could most likely respond. We are pretty far flung on this forum. That could come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 1 hour ago, norseman said: We are going to have to allow Hiflier the time to find a lab willing to do E DNA samples. And enough time to raise the money to pay for the lab. And the chosen lab is going to have to line researchers out on protocol for taking the samples. I think the Go fund me idea is an awesome idea. I personally would like to see samples go through a transparent chain of custody WITH results posted in the end. For example. ///////////////////////////////////// Sample # 2367 Researcher: Bob Smith Contact info: Address/Phone number Date: 10-25-20 Location: Pend Oreille River, Lat/Long Comments: I have recorded audio of whoops in this location before. SSR has reported 3 sightings within a 10 mile radius over the past 5 years. Sample # 2367 Collector: Bill Jones Contact info: Address/Phone number Date: 11-2-20 Lab: Horizon Laboratories Inc. 12345 Pine Ave, Denver, Co 76543 Comments: Sent off Fed Ex ground today. Sample # 2367 Researcher: Bob Smith Date: 12-16-20 Lab: Horizon Laboratories Inc. 12345 Pine Ave, Denver, Co 76543 Lab Results: Rainbow Trout, Northern Pike, Beaver, Black Bear, Whitetail Deer. Comments: Did not sequence plant life per request. /////////////////////////////////////////// I think many researchers get disillusioned over the years by sending in samples only to not hear anything back at all. I think in order to keep people engaged people need feedback. Even if it’s not the target species we are looking for. People will feel better about their work if they see results. If this technology is as good as they say it is? Using the grass roots approach? Hundreds of researchers submitting hundreds of samples? Is going to cover a large chunk of real estate fairly quickly. If the beast exists? It cannot hide forever. And anyone can put on some rubber gloves and collect a water sample. It’s not rocket science. We have been stagnate for awhile now. Obviously what I’m doing isn’t working. This would be a new powerful tool for researchers to put in their tool belt. Who knows? We may get lucky! I agree. If it got that serious, I'd imagine we would need to move that to the private/premium part of the forum. Really like your additional suggestions though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigantor Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 @hiflier Lets figure out the details and procedures first. We'll figure out the money part later, I'll help with that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts