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Reasons Not To Consider The Pgf A Hoax

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kitakaze

Japanese hold no candle to my Northern Slobovian friends that are dazzled and astounded by the realism and biologic grace they witness in the PGF.

Imaginary countries and worlds are neat. I am a huge The Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire nerd, so I very much think this. But your imaginary country friends, and my Japanese friends only prove one thing - the PGF is subjective. I challenge anyone who thinks they can refute that to try their best and do so.

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kitakaze

Crow, not trying to say the entire leg looks like the waders, only that the very lower portion of Patty's leg looks unnatural (to me anyway), like the muscle is flexing on the side of the leg, and the quickest pic I could find with anything even resembling that unnatural look was a pic of those waders.

I assure you my intent was not to extend the comparison to the entire leg.

This is the portion I'm talking about:

sidelegcompare.jpg

Nothing visually dishonest about it.

RayG

I'll post this again for ease of acess on this page...

89614cb7b93cd7940.jpg

For everybody,

Check out the two left subjects, Patty and Bob Heironimus suited up at Cow Camp. Look at the fold in the middle of Bob's right arm. I think the same can be seen on Patty's upper right thigh. Bob is wearing football shoulder pads. Look at Patty on the left. Look at her chest and shoulders. For me it is completely obvious that there are shoulder pads under what I think is the Patty suit.

Am I unjustified in thinking this? If someone wants to think Patty just has loose skin or hair pattern bands, that's fine. If someone wants to think Patty's sternum is projecting, that's fine. If someone wants to think Patty's boobs are not absurd, that's fine. Same for her tragic butt and silly slipper looking feet. It is all subjective and I can not take away a PGF believer's opinion by undermining their right to see what ever they want in the rorschach that is Patty. Leroy Blevins was too far gone enough to think he could see Gimlin in the trees. His Patty recreation looks amazing from behind to me and no one can deny that others do, too. Some people have claimed to see a baby on Patty. That's is some funky guano to me, but they are allowed.

Main point - it is not at all unreasonable to see an obvious suit.

Edited by kitakaze

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Bill

Kitakaze:

"An Oscar-winning FX genius studies the film in depth and the more and more they do, they see an amateurish hoax and I think they would take that away, too. I think it's rather arrogant to undermine the totally valid opinions of so many people and not acknowledge the simple fact that the PGF is a subjective thing. I am allowed to think so. Some people see a real Bigfoot. Many others see a silly suit. Bill Munns sees a real creature, Chris Walas does not."

Just curious if you recall what the analysis of Chris Walas concluded? Chris thought the suit was a two piece design, a wetsuit/snap-crotch configuration, while Bob H says it was a two piece "pants and tee-shirt" with a waist split and a drawstring waist.

Problem is, one of the two men must be wrong. A suit can't be both waist drawstring and snap-crotch.

In the 60's, unless a guy was a surfer or scuba diver, the only experience a guy might have with a snap-crotch was undoing one in the back seat of Opal's Buick with a willing ladyfriend. The snap=grotch was a "girly thing" and I doubt that if Bob H had tried to hook up a snap-crotch suit, that he'd have forgotten the experience. So you may have to clear up this obvious contridiction with your favorite Makeup guy and your favorite suit-wearing cowboy, and face the fact at least one of them is wrong, and so you'll need to throw one of them off the PGF Hoax Island.

Simply as a point of advice, to sell your theory of hoax, you need to deal with these kinds of conflicts of analysis or testimony.

Bill

Can't have Chris Walas and Bob H. both being right.

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Crowlogic

Crow, not trying to say the entire leg looks like the waders, only that the very lower portion of Patty's leg looks unnatural (to me anyway), like the muscle is flexing on the side of the leg, and the quickest pic I could find with anything even resembling that unnatural look was a pic of those waders.

I assure you my intent was not to extend the comparison to the entire leg.

This is the portion I'm talking about:

sidelegcompare.jpg

Nothing visually dishonest about it.

RayG

Curious example of subjective perception of an object. To me the lower calf is one of the better features on Patty to put it in the real category. Maybe it would be better to post the specific details to focus on. In any event I think that if Bob H had never mentioned hip waders the notion of hip waders would have never entered the PGF discussions.

Fur clad hip waders stuffed with padding I'd hazard a guess would move in such an outlandishly unorthodox manner as to be laughable as opposed to the PGF which is capable of holding firm opinions on either side of the fence.

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kitakaze

Kitakaze:

"An Oscar-winning FX genius studies the film in depth and the more and more they do, they see an amateurish hoax and I think they would take that away, too. I think it's rather arrogant to undermine the totally valid opinions of so many people and not acknowledge the simple fact that the PGF is a subjective thing. I am allowed to think so. Some people see a real Bigfoot. Many others see a silly suit. Bill Munns sees a real creature, Chris Walas does not."

Just curious if you recall what the analysis of Chris Walas concluded? Chris thought the suit was a two piece design, a wetsuit/snap-crotch configuration, while Bob H says it was a two piece "pants and tee-shirt" with a waist split and a drawstring waist.

Problem is, one of the two men must be wrong. A suit can't be both waist drawstring and snap-crotch.

In the 60's, unless a guy was a surfer or scuba diver, the only experience a guy might have with a snap-crotch was undoing one in the back seat of Opal's Buick with a willing ladyfriend. The snap=grotch was a "girly thing" and I doubt that if Bob H had tried to hook up a snap-crotch suit, that he'd have forgotten the experience. So you may have to clear up this obvious contridiction with your favorite Makeup guy and your favorite suit-wearing cowboy, and face the fact at least one of them is wrong, and so you'll need to throw one of them off the PGF Hoax Island.

Simply as a point of advice, to sell your theory of hoax, you need to deal with these kinds of conflicts of analysis or testimony.

Bill

Can't have Chris Walas and Bob H. both being right.

Again, we suffer from the archives sitting in Bipto's computer. I think both Walas and Heironimus could possibly be wrong. Or modifications could be made that we know nothing about. There might have been a first crack at it by Roger, and then Al looks at it and effectively says, "No, no, no, dummy. That looks like my mother's rug. Let's do this right. Where's the phone?" And then Al goes and gets some professional help. We don't know. The most ideal situation is to have the suit in your hands to see what is what.

Let me ask you a related question, Bill. Why did Al DeAtely say he knew Bob Heironimus through Roger and why did he confirm what Bob said to him on the night of Waylon Jennings concert at the Saddle Tree in 1970? How is that possible? It does not prove a hoax, but I think it strongly confirms that neither Bob, Glenda, or Gary lied to me about the event.

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kitakaze

Curious example of subjective perception of an object.

I'm glad we agree that the PGF is subjective. It's much easier that way when we acknowledge the validity of all our opinions. I'm looking forward to your opinions about what I pointed out on Patty's thigh and chest and shoulders.

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Crowlogic

CC Bob is a joke and when multiple images are shown of CC Bob the affair positively screams human wearing a very poor costume. I use the word costume because Morris's creations really don't qualify as serious creature suits. At best they are more like props that are not designed to actually fool anybody. If the PGF were filmed today with Bob in the CC suit the entire thing would have been discredited within the first 24 hours of its first showing. That said the CC Bob frame posted really demonstrates how poorly the head matches Patty. And oh the color is as dreadful as ever. At least rug boy Blevins gets that much right. Shame on Phil the pro who didn't do his homework like he should have.

Sorry I don't know what the other thing is but would be helpful if we could be directed to more of it to truly appraise its appearance.

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RayG

Crow, I'm not suggesting hip waders have anything to do with Patty, I'm merely using the pic because the waders and Patty both have what appears (to me) to be a strange fold/shadow/bend in a similar area. I'm not trying to suggest anything else.

If you don't see the same type of fold on Patty's lower leg, then so be it.

ETA: It's not the calf area, it's the side of the lower leg, the area near the midpoint of the knee and what would likely be the ankle.

RayG

Edited by RayG

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roguefooter

Let me ask you a related question, Bill. Why did Al DeAtely say he knew Bob Heironimus through Roger and why did he confirm what Bob said to him on the night of Waylon Jennings concert at the Saddle Tree in 1970? How is that possible? It does not prove a hoax, but I think it strongly confirms that neither Bob, Glenda, or Gary lied to me about the event.

Well DeAtely was Roger's brother-in-law so I'm sure he paid them a home visit occasionally. Given that Heironimus and Patterson were neighbors and friends it doesn't seem out of the ordinary for DeAtely to meet Heironimus through Roger.

Any issue of money could be tied to anything.

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Guest nycBig

Bob H could have been asking Al Deatly for money that was owed him for the other horseback scenes he did for Roger's movie, not the PGF?

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kitakaze

CC Bob is a joke and when multiple images are shown of CC Bob the affair positively screams human wearing a very poor costume.

I think Patty is a joke. I think both CC Bob and Patty have obvious suit wrinkles and obvious fake padding bulges.

I use the word costume because Morris's creations really don't qualify as serious creature suits. At best they are more like props that are not designed to actually fool anybody.

I would never argue that Morris costumes are meant to fool rather than be for fun. Some get extremely expensive...

http://www.mooncostumes.com/item/15872?session=HyCuKrsL78oTtvREhz0PhkEmEb1X4oO7

But most are merely Halloween and party costumes.

If the PGF were filmed today with Bob in the CC suit the entire thing would have been discredited within the first 24 hours of its first showing.

Ironically, I think if the PGF were made today, Bigfooters would roast Patterson alive in short order.

That said the CC Bob frame posted really demonstrates how poorly the head matches Patty.

89614c22eac396afa.gif

And oh the color is as dreadful as ever. At least rug boy Blevins gets that much right. Shame on Phil the pro who didn't do his homework like he should have.

Shame? I feel you're not being very fair. Phil had a week and he ordered the dynel from a friend who assured him it was brown. He never mentioned reddish-brown was all he had and Phil was stuck with what he got. Colour corrected, I think its flaws and Patty's flaws are often similar in nature.

Sorry I don't know what the other thing is but would be helpful if we could be directed to more of it to truly appraise its appearance.

Google > Robot Monster.

robot_monster.jpg

Edited by kitakaze

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kitakaze

Well DeAtely was Roger's brother-in-law so I'm sure he paid them a home visit occasionally. Given that Heironimus and Patterson were neighbors and friends it doesn't seem out of the ordinary for DeAtely to meet Heironimus through Roger.

Any issue of money could be tied to anything.

1) Al DeAtley described Roger as a bum and a pest. He felt cintempt for him, generally. He also said he did not have time for his escapades. Did Al lie when he said that?

2) Why would you say that Patterson and Heironimus were friends and neighbours? Gimlin and Heironimus were friends and then neighbours and friends until BH came forward publicly. They are still neighbours now, but the friendship was severed. Their wives still are friendly. Howard Heironimus lived with Patricia Patterson before she married Roger. Her brother Bruce Mondor was Howard's best friend, and Howard did come to Roger's home. Bob only came to Roger's home in connection with the film. Al claimed to have no involvement with the film until after it was made. He immediately gave Roger $75,000 and went to Hollywood to make Bigfoot Enterprises with the lawyer that Jerry Merrit and Roger had gone to see before the PGF to copyright Bigfoot.

Yes, I think Roger would be roasted alive if the PGF were filmed today. The fact that it is subjective and I think everything we need to make a proper determination about it is gone or hidden away is why it endures among a community of believers.

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roguefooter

One thing that I've noticed on all of the professional and high end ape suits used in movies, etc., is that they all have ape feet with the divergent big toe.

2nta99i.jpg

dw9rua.jpg

154etkl.jpg

I would assume that the Morris costume had this feature as well given that it was supposed to be a high-end ape suit. We know that Patty's feet doesn't have this divergent big toe and I've heard no mention of the feet having been modified, especially from Morris.

So did Patterson custom make his own feet too? Or did Morris sell him an ape costume with over-sized human-shaped feet?

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roguefooter

1) Al DeAtley described Roger as a bum and a pest. He felt cintempt for him, generally. He also said he did not have time for his escapades. Did Al lie when he said that?

That doesn't mean he never visited them or met his friends. I don't like my In-laws either but I still go to their house on occasion and act friendly and talk to their neighbors.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about it and I can assure you it doesn't mean that my in-laws and I made a bigfoot film.

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kitakaze

One thing that I've noticed on all of the professional and high end ape suits used in movies, etc., is that they all have ape feet with the divergent big toe.

I would assume that the Morris costume had this feature as well given that it was supposed to be a high-end ape suit. We know that Patty's feet doesn't have this divergent big toe and I've heard no mention of the feet having been modified, especially from Morris.

So did Patterson custom make his own feet too? Or did Morris sell him an ape costume with over-sized human-shaped feet?

morris.jpg

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