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Bigfoot's Blog!: Exploring Bluff Creek Bigfoot History

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kitakaze

I think it's unfortunate that either Green or Miller would react that way. In Green I would surmise pride and the idea that he does indeed know he failed in that case to detect an obvious hoax. What Bill Miller is thinking, I could only guess at, but in the end the failure to acknowledge an obvious hoax only serves to illustrate the level of credulousness in some Bigfoot enthusiasts. Thankfully, there are people like yourself that aren't afraid to call a hoax a hoax.

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parnassus

The exact date when Bigfoot footprints first appeared at the Bluff Creek site is not a thing that anyone could ever say with certainty. Do you really know where everybody was way back then?

Did I write that I know where everybody was back then? or is that just a straw man?

If that is your way of asking for a source for what I wrote about the Wallace brothers in 1958, it's in a book written by Roger Patterson, back in 1966.

Edited by parnassus

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BigfootBookman

I have to admit feeling rather disturbed by the Wallace feet when they were presented by his family to the public after Ray's death. They did look abominably familiar. Not long after that I, too, was looking back at my John Green books. Though the Wallace feet do not match many of the Bluff Creek historical footprints, they do match very closely the ones found in 1967, before the Patterson-Gimlin film was shot. They do not match with the P-G sandbar track casts, nor the original Jerry Crew one, nor Patterson's Laird Meadow print from 1964. The similarity with the Al Hodgson cast is, I think, debatable.

post-37-094574300 1287472489_thumb.jpg

The feature that stands out most is the so-called "double ball" on the side of the foot, with the "hourglass" general curvature. Also, the boxiness of the toes is a Wallace-foot feature. Looking at the photos from Onion Mountain and Blue Creek Mountain I have to admit that there is similarity. The OM trackway looks fairly artificial in photos, and the close-up taken by Rene Dahinden, especially, looks identical to a Wallace foot stomper. What can we say? The tale goes that the tracks led down from the hill and over the other side down an embankment. These tracks showed great variance and adaptability to the irregular terrain, not to mention covering ground where it would be exceedingly difficult to utilize Wallace's stated means of hoaxing. That method was supposedly to put the wooden feet onto one's boots and be pulled behind a truck on a rope while walking, achieving greater stride and depth of impact upon the ground. At least, that is the way the account goes. We weren't there, unfortunately, to witness these aspects. To my eye, the tracks in the photo that Kitakaze provides, above, DO look fake. They are too flat and too regular in placement; but that is just my eye, and it is such using an incompletely documented history and sets of photos. I'm sure there are many, many unpublished photographic examples still in the files of the Dahinden brothers and Mr. Green--if only we could see them all!

post-37-032347100 1287472675_thumb.jpg

You surely have heard the "believer" defense on this matter: Wallace copied his footprint stompers from tracks they found earlier, i.e., from the REAL tracks. To me this is plausible, to some degree.

post-37-068293700 1287472509_thumb.jpg

Also, one has to ask was Wallace even THERE in 1967? He was employed on the earlier Bluff Creek Road project, but was he employed on the later Blue Creek Mountain ridgeline add-on??? Kitakaze, above, presents 1967 footprints in an attempt, I assume, to discredit tracks and events that occurred in 1958. I'm personally not sure that this makes sense. If the Wallaces weren't there, then what does it have to do with it? Did he pass on his footprint stompers to someone else? It's a bit of a mystery.

post-37-099384800 1287472764_thumb.jpg Patterson's 1964 Laird Meadow Cast

Look at the photo of the tracks in the road dirt below the Hodgson cast... there are TWO different footprint shapes there. Also, look at the photo of Wallace (actually, that looks like Rant Mullens to me) with the row of fake footprints--NONE of these match, and ALL of them look ridiculous. In the case of the BCM prints there were supposedly THREE different trackways found, all differing in shape and size.

post-37-012047400 1287473013_thumb.jpg Al Hodgson's footprint casts, as seen in A&E documentary.

It is so difficult to say anything concrete and verifiable in these matters. It is undeniable that Wallace and his brother(s) were around on and off in the late 1950s, up to some time in the early 60s. The article presented in Roger Patterson's book (Humboldt Times, October 14, 1958, by Andrew Genzoli) mentions Bigfoot-type events occurring two years or so BEFORE 1958. So, from this, we apparently know that the Wallaces were working in Bluff Creek in 1956. The fact that there was a Wallace presence through these years does cast some suspicion on the early Bluff Creek reports. But who knows? He may have picked up on reports and sightings that already existed in this area LONG before Mr. Ray arrived. These, also, have persisted after he left the area and after he left this earthly realm. Was Ray Wallace imitative, or originative? I think it was the first case, but that he started to play into the expectations of the media and the researchers of the topic. It is undeniable that there WERE hoax events going on back then; but one is hard-pressed to ascertain WHEN, and WHICH were Wallace or Wallace-influenced or -encouraged hoaxings.

I know from conversations with the fellow (Delaney, his last name, but he doesn't want his full name out there) whose father owned the Orleans Inn that there were good-old-boys and loggers and construction workers joking around about hoaxing Bigfoot. They used to sit on his porch at the Inn, when my contact was just a kid, and talk about doing it. Also, another old logger named Joe Ramos, who worked mostly up in the Blue Creek and farther north watersheds, up from Bluff Creek, that most of the local workers considered it to be a hoax. That is, according to him, and those he knew. Ramos used to own the store in Klamath, down on the coast, and would drive back and forth over Bald Hills Road regularly in the course of his business. He died recently at the age of 92.

post-37-001252900 1287473320_thumb.jpg

Then again, there are other old-timers, including my neighbor, Jay Rowland, along with Al Hodgson, who INSIST that Wallace did not do those footprints. As a person trying to find out the truth on these matters, or rather, seeking to tell the truth from the baloney, it can get extremely frustrating. One hears so many differing historical points, often contradictory ones, that a lead often spins in on itself into a dead end culdesac.

post-37-044869700 1287473344_thumb.jpg Track casts at 2007 Willow Creek PGF Anniversary event. Photo taken by Steven Streufert.

We know from Patterson's book that Wallace moved to Toledo, WA "a few years back" before 1966. Assuming this was written in that year, then perhaps Wallace moved in 1963? We need to find out the dates of his time not only living down here in the Willow-Bluff Creek area, but also the dates of his presence on the work projects. With Shorty-Wilbur Wallace involved, though, who knows? And if their joke hoaxes spread to other workers who also wanted to try their hands...? Well, we're really hard pressed to say what is real and what is simulacra and farce. Look right at the cover of John Green's ON THE TRACK OF SASQUATCH and there it is, a life-sized image of the Wallace footprint stomper (or page 70 of the current "BEST OF..." edition). The classic Rene Dahinden (page. 45, BEST OF SASQUATCH-BIGFOOT) also looks suspiciously Wallacian. However, right next to it on page 44 one can see the Hyampom track from 1963, which looks much different, and to my eye at least, more authentic.

post-37-006867200 1287473211_thumb.jpg Green's casts show great variation.

It's hard to explain all of this. In fact, some of it can't be explained. All I as an individual can do is take some things with a grain of salt. I'll stand up for John Green's great work any day, even if he may have fallen for a hoax or two. I will not say that I believe these Onion Mountain and Blue Creek Mountain tracks to be a hoaxes, but I will admit that they COULD have been. The last thing I think one should do is try to bend evidence to match one's expectations. And, as far as that goes, there is simply an amazing amount of stuff to suggest that Bigfoot is real, even without these possible Wallace tracks; and yes, even without the PGF.

post-37-023111500 1287472453_thumb.jpg

I would like to suggest, however, that the PGF tracks are QUITE DIFFERENT from the Wallace stompers, and VERY variable, as cast by Titmus and Patterson.

All I can offer for now is to TRY to get more clarity from the memories of those who knew or worked with the Wallaces, or from those historian types who may have records of those days somewhere. It's a long shot. See, this is how human memory and reportage works: witnesses are unreliable, accounts vary, memories get blurred, the timelines get mixed up.... It makes the Patterson film timeline issues look simple in comparison.

Best,

Steve

Did I write that I know where everybody was back then? or is that just a straw man?

If that is your way of asking for a source for what I wrote about the Wallace brothers in 1958, it's in a book written by Roger Patterson, back in 1966.

Edited by BigfootBookman
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BigfootBookman

Check out what Brian Dunning has to say on SKEPTOID.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4011

There is a podcast listening link, too.

Killing Bigfoot with Bad Science

Is anyone doing any justice to the Bigfoot claim?

[summary categories/quotes:]

"I'm going to present what I consider the top three ways that each side of the Bigfoot claim is shooting themselves in the foot, beginning with the skeptics.

1. Saying that the guy who confessed to making tracks disproves the entire thing.

2. Saying the Patterson-Gimlin film is 'the worst fake ever.'

3. Criticizing good scientists like Jeff Meldrum."

...

"And now, I'd like to say a few words to those who mean to support Bigfoot but do themselves more harm than good with bad arguments. The wrong ways to support Bigfoot:

1. Stating that Bigfoot is an extraterrestrial, or comes to us from another dimension.

2. Being delusional: Seeing detailed Bigfoots in a blurry photograph that shows no such thing.

3. Doing bad science: Seeking to support a preconceived conclusion.

I know you're going to listen to all of this and conclude that I'm the pro-Bigfoot guy. I'll admit to being a Bigfoot hopeful (a hope based more on emotion than on any actual likelihood), but certainly not a believer. My point is simply that both sides of every debate contain a lot chaff along with the wheat. Both sides of every skeptical issue believe that they're right, but even those on the side that is right (and by that, I mean whichever side you're on) can probably stand to clean up their act a little, no matter what the issue is."

Who knew even Skeptoids have a soft side?

Steve

Bigfoot Books/BIGFOOT'S BLOG

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com/

I think it's unfortunate that either Green or Miller would react that way. In Green I would surmise pride and the idea that he does indeed know he failed in that case to detect an obvious hoax. What Bill Miller is thinking, I could only guess at, but in the end the failure to acknowledge an obvious hoax only serves to illustrate the level of credulousness in some Bigfoot enthusiasts. Thankfully, there are people like yourself that aren't afraid to call a hoax a hoax.

CITATION:

Dunning, Brian. "Killing Bigfoot with Bad Science." Skeptoid Podcast. Skeptoid Media, Inc., 3 Dec 2006. Web. 19 Oct 2010. <http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4011>

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BigfootBookman

Regarding the Al Hodgson footprint cast, here are some images from the Willow Creek-China Flat (Bigfoot Collection) display. Note that it does not look like a Wallace footprint stomper.

post-37-051741100 1287520975_thumb.jpg

post-37-058647100 1287520999_thumb.jpg

post-37-031916000 1287521020_thumb.jpg Photos by Steven Streufert, 2010. Please cite if using, with blog link.

post-37-014781400 1287521037_thumb.jpg

post-37-047805400 1287521104_thumb.jpg Al Hodgson from the A&E Bigfoot Ancient Mysteries documentary, holding one of his footprint casts.

Best,

Steve, Bigfoot Books

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com

I know some very specific things that I think Al Hodgson could lay at Ray Wallace's feet.

Let's start with this funkiness found by Al in 1963 at Bluff Creek...

89614c841d50c24b6.jpg

That's an original cast dead ringer for a Wallacefoot if I have ever seen one.

Now let's shift to Al again, I think, being duped in August 1967, along with John Green and others...

89614c841b1920c84.jpg

That right there looks spot on like the old trickster's prankster sense of humour. How did Hodgson or Green ever not think someone was trying to mess with them? Nobody likes admitting being fooled, but there comes a point, I think, when acknowledging the truth is more important than personal pride.

I would hope that Bigfoot proponents wouldn't be too prideful to admit what I think are clear as day Wallacefoots. Steven, I would encourage you to do an interview with somebody from the area who says hoaxing was happening and they were a part of it. Is it not obvious to you that there was indeed hoaxing happening over the years? I think only the most stubborn of believers could not admit to the obvious Wallacefoots. I note that you did acknowledge the close similarities. I say it is far more than just similarities. I think it is carbon copy...

89614c89986fc9a68.jpg

Pardon the great big "FAIL". It is there because I think Green failed to detect an obvious hoax, much as Al Hodgson did.

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parnassus

I have to admit feeling rather disturbed by the Wallace feet when they were presented by his family to the public after Ray's death. They did look abominably familiar. Not long after that I, too, was looking back at my John Green books. Though the Wallace feet do not match many of the Bluff Creek historical footprints, they do match very closely the ones found in 1967, before the Patterson-Gimlin film was shot. They do not match with the P-G sandbar track casts, nor the original Jerry Crew one, nor Patterson's Laird Meadow print from 1964. The similarity with the Al Hodgson cast is, I think, debatable.

.....

Best,

Steve

Great post, BFBM; Ray moved to Toledo WA in 1961. The Wallasoid tracks, according to a couple of sources, match all of the tracks found at Bluff Creek between 1958 and October 1967 with the exception of: 1) the one cast by Jerry Crew 2) and those "found" by Roger Patterson, and possibly one or two of the three found after Labor Day, 1967. This link has some good info. The Wallace brothers and Rant Mullens had been in the hoaxing culture since 1924, and there is no reason to believe that they didn't sell or distribute their creations, and/or inspire others. The Wallasoid trackway seen in the 1967 Green photos, at least, could hardly have been made by a bigfoot. The axis of the feet is straight ahead and the straddle appears to be nonexistent. Not to mention the monotonous adynamic nature of the prints.

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BigfootBookman

Parnassus,

I agree that those overly-straight trackways look absolutely faked, to my eye anyway they look just like what I saw in one news clip or documentary where one of the Wallace family was re-enacting how they faked footprints along the road. This was by being pulled behind a truck by holding a rope, while wearing the wooden feet. To accomplish this one would naturally be inclined to keep one's feet in a straight line with the axis of the rope, so as not to lose balance. I've had certain Bigfooters tell me that this linear stride alignment is just how Bigfoot creatures walk; but to me that seems an explanation after the fact, trying to make up things to make the theory of what a Bigfoot is and does match the ostensible evidence. Just how, I would ask, would a giant, broad creature such as the Sasquatch develop the habit (and evolutionary trait) of walking with steps in such a straight line? This would suggest a creature that actually turned its feet inward, a walking style that not only does not make any real anatomical sense, but would also incline the creature toward tipping over all the time. That big, adaptable foot, it would seem to me, would be more mobile, widely spaced, adapting to the terrain, certainly not tip-toeing around.

post-37-065524500 1287609503_thumb.jpg post-37-051868300 1287609592_thumb.jpg

I am looking forward to Meldrum completing his online footprint track scan database. He was here in Willow Creek and scanned all of the Bigfoot Collection's specimens in 3-D high density. There are many casts from around this general area that do NOT match the Wallace classic stomper as shown by his family after Ray's death. There are many that match more closely to Patterson's casts. And then there are the famous ones from Hyampom.

post-37-013027100 1287609469_thumb.jpg

Look again at that photo of the line-up of the Wallace prints Kitakaze presents, above--NONE of those look realistic at all. They don't even look as realistic as the foot stomper. They show a consistent pattern of shoddy craftsmanship, a tendency quite in line with his other presentations of Bigfoot to the world--ridiculous letters (See them on the NABS site), bad recordings, tall tales and exaggerations. Those Wallace tracks wouldn't even fool the most credulous child at his road-side display.

post-37-008890500 1287609287_thumb.jpg

I am of the persuasion that there was a lot of hoaxing then, just as we today have a lot of silly blobsquatches and fake game camera images. However, I am quite persuaded by all the other reports I hear, and the other track casts, and by the PGF itself, that there IS something real roaming around out there in the Klamath-Trinity-Siskiyou wilderness.

post-37-022683800 1287609631_thumb.jpg post-37-065056200 1287609702_thumb.jpg

Best,

Steve, Bigfoot Books, Willow Creek

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com/

Great post, BFBM; Ray moved to Toledo WA in 1961. The Wallasoid tracks, according to a couple of sources, match all of the tracks found at Bluff Creek between 1958 and October 1967 with the exception of: 1) the one cast by Jerry Crew 2) and those "found" by Roger Patterson, and possibly one or two of the three found after Labor Day, 1967. This link has some good info. The Wallace brothers and Rant Mullens had been in the hoaxing culture since 1924, and there is no reason to believe that they didn't sell or distribute their creations, and/or inspire others. The Wallasoid trackway seen in the 1967 Green photos, at least, could hardly have been made by a bigfoot. The axis of the feet is straight ahead and the straddle appears to be nonexistent. Not to mention the monotonous adynamic nature of the prints.

Edited by BigfootBookman

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Guest nycBig

I am suprised that no one was skeptical that the wallace trackways seem to always follow the path of a large truck..

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xspider1

That 'Wallace Comparisons' pic is great, BigfootBookman! There's a tendency to think that hoaxes somehow negate other realities and; I'm glad that not everybody thinks that way. Thanks again for your efforts!

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BigfootBookman

YES! The truck tracks are clearly seen. However, Green and others speak of the tracks coming down the hill and then eventually heading off the opposite bank in at least one of the trackway finds. So? One has to wonder. I'll have to go back to the Green books to clarify which track find this was in reference to. Anyone here recall?

I will hold to the opinion that some tracks were hoaxed and others were not, at least until any evidence proves otherwise. I mean, there were reports of sightings, too, and vandalism of work sites, and not just from the Wallace crew.

s.

I am suprised that no one was skeptical that the wallace trackways seem to always follow the path of a large truck..

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parnassus

YES! The truck tracks are clearly seen. However, Green and others speak of the tracks coming down the hill and then eventually heading off the opposite bank in at least one of the trackway finds. So? One has to wonder. I'll have to go back to the Green books to clarify which track find this was in reference to. Anyone here recall?

I will hold to the opinion that some tracks were hoaxed and others were not, at least until any evidence proves otherwise. I mean, there were reports of sightings, too, and vandalism of work sites, and not just from the Wallace crew.

s.

One thing I am convinced of is that with big shoes, walking/running takes a certain type of weird gait that is not possible while being pulled and running behind a truck. There may be other ways to use a truck to hoax a trackway, but pulling someone along/running is a good way to break his face.

Edited by parnassus

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BigfootBookman

post-37-025045600 1289361018_thumb.jpgNEW POST on BIGFOOT'S BLOG!

Part of our studies of the Patterson-Gimlin film site and Bluff Creek's history, we now present:

AN INFORMAL INTERVIEW WITH JIM MCCLARIN,

Early PGF Investigator and Bigfooting Icon;

FRANCES HODGSON, R.I.P.

http://bigfootbooksb...m-mcclarin.html

permalink, or just:

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com

It is a bit fragmentary in places, but keep in mind: McClarin is "retired" from Bigfooting, and has been for quite a long time.

You may recall that McClarin was the chap seen in John Green's recreation of the film, the guy walking in the track-way, and is also the one who carved the famous Willow Creek Oh-Mah/Bigfoot statue.

Enjoy! Much more will be following shortly on the blog, though I'll probably post links to these entries in my other thread,

"Where is the Patterson-Gimlin Film Site?"

Best to all,

Steve

Bigfoot Books, Willow Creek

post-37-040254200 1289360965_thumb.jpg

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xspider1

Steve,

Thank-you. Please express our sincere condolences to Al for his loss.

Please also tell Jim that his responses are very much appreciated here in Tennessee. Those guys along with many others like you seem to take a very honest approach to this with a genuine desire to know the truth.

Jim's comment: "I'm partial to Pye's thesis that Homo sapiens diverges in so many ways from "early man" and appeared so suddenly that we are the likely result of somebody's genetic tampering experiment. I just finished Sitchin's "The Twelfth Planet..." hit the spot here. I don't worry too much about what other people say cannot be true and instead I listen more to those that consider the possibilities.

Thanks again, your interviews and comments are fascinating!

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BigfootBookman

Cross-posting to this thread from "Where is the Patterson-Gimlin Film Site" thread.

post-37-049033500 1289562882_thumb.jpgNEW BLOG POST on BIGFOOT'S BLOG!

Read about the varied views on the Patterson-Gimlin Film site location, with input from Green, Byrne, Dahinden, Fries, Barackman and Perez. There are at least five different theoretical locations for the film track-way. Do we really even know where the famous film was shot? This is the stuff that formed the basis for our recent BLUFF CREEK FILM PROJECT.

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com/

or perma-linked at

http://bigfootbooksb...ding-bluff.html

Your feedback and contributions to this issue will be greatly appreciated.

Best,

Steve, Bigfoot Books, Bigfoot's bLog

post-37-055455500 1289562917_thumb.jpg

Panoramic view of lower sandbar, one proposed PGF site location.

CLICK TO ENLARGE. Photo taken by Brad Pennock, Belive-It Tour, 2009.

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BigfootBookman

post-37-020205800 1291097272_thumb.jpgTWO NEW BLUFF CREEK RELATED POSTS ON BIGFOOT'S BLOG!!!

THE BLUFF CREEK FILM SITE PROJECT

http://bigfootbooksblog.blogspot.com/

Check out this link for the VIDEOS ONE THROUGH THREE, constituting the INTRODUCTION:

http://bigfootbooksb...-film-site.html

Go here for the most recent video links for VIDEOS FOUR THROUGH EIGHT, and more information, wherein we actually make it to BLUFF CREEK, and hike all the way up to and traipse all over the several proposed Patterson-Gimlin Film site locations:

http://bigfootbooksb...ect-update.html

Or just follow these links the the most recent ones...

Here is PART FOUR of the Bluff Creek Film Site Project. Watch Robert Leiterman as he walks up the creek from the Bluff Creek Bridge to the Patterson-Gimlin Film site.

Here is Part Five of the BLUFF CREEK FILM SITE PROJECT, wherein we hike down the dirt road above the site and observe the sand bar and creek canyon below, and finally reach the bat boxes landing on the creek.

Here is PART SIX of our BLUFF CREEK FILM SITE PROJECT, wherein three Bigfooting nerds really geek out in the rain nitpicking over the details given us by Peter Byrne for his location of the Patterson-Gimlin Film site.

Here is PART SEVEN of our BLUFF CREEK FILM SITE PROJECT on BFRO-VIDEOS on YouTube. Here at the "Peter Byrne Site" we compare old photos to new landscapes, stumble upon stumps, and dig in the sand searching for the very ground Patty walked upon in the PGF.

................CONTINUING IN NEXT POST, due to BFF Media Limits.....................

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