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Albert Ostman


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#181 BobbyO

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:46 AM

BFS, just looking at some stuff i done before ( below ) and i'm thinking it coincides with your pin on that map ?

Could you check to see if that's the case please ?

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The more i look at it the more i'm sure he would have been taken to an area close & in the proximity of Sims Creek, Ashlu River & the Upper Squamish River, much of which is not accessible by Car..

He did say he wanted to head West over 2 Ridges ( one of which would be in the vicinity of Tzoonie Mountain & Mount Jimmy Jimmy ) to get to Salt Water & juts beyond Mount Churchill is Jervis Inlet.

But getting accross 2 Ridges to the South ( like he mentioned doing & where Baker would be positioned ) would lead him to coming out at the Salmon Arm of the Sechelt Inlet.

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In fact, if it isn't my imagination, that would be exactly the right position ( i think ) that you pinned judging by his " want to head over two ridges " comment wouldn't it ?

Only problem with it would be why he didn't head for Narrows Inlet, which he surely would have seen and would have been much quicker and easier to get to than crossing two ridges.

That then makes me think again that he was maybe more further east of the pinpoint that BFS made, somewhere close to Sims Creek, Ashlu River & the Upper Squamish River area.
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#182 vilnoori

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:58 AM

The distances are staggering. You have to remember we are talking about mountain terrain here, not just as the crow flies. It makes me wonder if he made a mistake and meant to say Jervis Inlet instead of Salmon. Jervis would be much more doable, but still incredibly far for one person to walk or even run. Even a bigfoot.
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#183 Terry

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 12:06 PM

That's some serious mileage though BFS, something that i can't personally see to be possible.

I'm still happy with my previous conclusions and that was i think he got his locations mixed up, big time.


Usually prospectors have a pretty good grasp on distance and location.
Another research tool may be old aerial photography. Try and get the oldest photos available of the area. Even if it turns out to be several years after the event the roads, etc. may still show up. I've used photos from the 40's in my forestry career here in Ontario and you'd be surprised how some things don't change. On the other hand, they can change alot.

This would make a great documentary (sp?)...trying to prove or disprove the event. Millionaires and the like sure miss out on great ways to spend their money! lol

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#184 Cotter

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 12:10 PM

I hope this is OK.

Here's a start for 1920's aerial photography of canada.

http://www.nrcan.gc....-collection/857
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A message from Peter Byrne....to Pat Beaton:
The last time I met Patterson, at his home in Tampico, WA., the poor fellow was dying, sitting in his back garden on a wooden chair, a veritable skeleton...his fatal illness being Hodgsons disease. He was thoroughly depressed and very angry at the skepticism with which science - and many people - viewed the footage, 
and one of the last things he said to me was..."You know, Peter, we had an opportunity to shoot that thing. Bob had a loaded rifle on it. Maybe that's what we should have done. Then people would believe us."
 

"and incs married to morgan freemans sister.....or something like that  ;)" - Doc Holiday


#185 BFSleuth

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 12:33 PM

From my read of his escape:

1. The opening of the hanging valley where he was held captive opened to the Southwest.

2. During his initial escape, running downhill, he must have entered a valley going downstream to the South. The valley (and stream) then turned West.

3. His idea was that no matter what he wanted to head South toward civilization, so he decided to climb the ridge facing him directly to the South (the ridge would have been running east and west). The stream must have been flowing to the west.

4. Due to heavy forest at the time he may not have seen Narrows Inlet. Even if he did see it when climbing the ridge he may have been reluctant to head that direction because there would be a small chance of being found and that would put him back in proximity to the BF. He wanted high ground.

The problem in going much farther east as the starting point of his escape is that the major rivers run south, there would likely have been roads farther east, and I'm having trouble trying to match anything to his statements of the lay of the land.
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#186 jerrywayne

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 06:39 PM

Pondering...

Ostman's story did not arise in a vacuum. He revealed his adventure decades after it occurred; he apparently told no one about the adventure until he read Roe's story in 1956 or 57. Two options: he was so excited to find that someone else had seen a similar creature that he released his pent up account; or, he latched on to Roe's story and spun a tall tale off of it.

Ostman's story is richly detailed. Two options: the events were so compelling they were burned into his memory, even minor details like feeling the canned food bouncing against his body as the Old Man carried him in his sleeping bag; or such detail is the sign of a well thought out vivid tall tale.

The affidavit. Two options: he wanted to be believed; or he wanted to be believed and knew his story could not be significantly contradicted (and, therefore, no fear of penalty).

According to a Michael Dennett article, Dahinden tried to reconstruct the distances and times provided by Ostman and concluded the story was "totally impossible".

Supposedly, Barbara Wasson, a Bigfoot enthusiast and trained psychologist, in her book Sasquatch Apparitions, thought Ostman's story was a projection of his imagination rather than a recounting of real events.

(I've been unable to find Dennett's original article or Wasson's book. Both are footnoted in Daegling's Bigfoot Exposed.)
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#187 BobbyO

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:18 PM

Usually prospectors have a pretty good grasp on distance and location.


He was a construction worker and logger though T, that just went prospecting for a vacation.

The distances are staggering. You have to remember we are talking about mountain terrain here, not just as the crow flies. It makes me wonder if he made a mistake and meant to say Jervis Inlet instead of Salmon. Jervis would be much more doable, but still incredibly far for one person to walk or even run. Even a bigfoot.


I agree with all that Vil.

& this is of course assuming that he did actually start from the Toba, which even geographically aside from him saying that because he started out from Lund, would seem to be correct.
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#188 Transformer

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

From my read of his escape:

1. The opening of the hanging valley where he was held captive opened to the Southwest.

2. During his initial escape, running downhill, he must have entered a valley going downstream to the South. The valley (and stream) then turned West.

3. His idea was that no matter what he wanted to head South toward civilization, so he decided to climb the ridge facing him directly to the South (the ridge would have been running east and west). The stream must have been flowing to the west.

4. Due to heavy forest at the time he may not have seen Narrows Inlet. Even if he did see it when climbing the ridge he may have been reluctant to head that direction because there would be a small chance of being found and that would put him back in proximity to the BF. He wanted high ground.

The problem in going much farther east as the starting point of his escape is that the major rivers run south, there would likely have been roads farther east, and I'm having trouble trying to match anything to his statements of the lay of the land.


No road for over a hundred miles east at least in 1924.
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#189 BFSleuth

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:45 AM

I'll have to research more, but if you get too far East from where I've pegged a possible location for his valley of captivity, then you get toward Highway 99 and the river that flows straight south to Squamish. If his intent was to go South no matter what, then there is a natural valley running directly south to Squamish. From his description he had to be on the west side of the crest of mountains just to the west of Squamish in order to come out at or near Salmon Inlet.

If, as someone suggested, he was mistaken about coming out at Salmon Inlet then it might open up other territory he could have been, but I have to believe that if there is any shred of truth to the story then he had to have the Salmon Inlet correct as he would have been informed by the logging operation where he was.

Still looking, but there doesn't seem to be any hanging valley fitting his description with a SE opening an 6-8 acres of area surrounded by cliffs.

Another thing that folks needs to know, when you look at Google Earth images of the area under question please realize you are looking at mid summer images. The snow that you see is permanent snowfields. Therefore we can rule out any valleys at the highest elevation as they wouldn't support trees or grass fields as he described.
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#190 OntarioSquatch

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:18 PM

If Albert wasn't able to return, I think he could have been material for David Paulides's book Missing 411. For me his story adds more weight to the possibility that people get kidnapped often by Sasquatch and don't live to tell about it. Sad, but unfortunately it's likely true if we really have large, intelligent primates all over the continent.
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#191 AaronD

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:06 PM

Or they might just be large hairy people, as Albert described...I believe.
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#192 Doc Holliday

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

or the whole story could be BS...not saying it is, or isnt. i simply dont know,although it is one of my favorite stories.

this was said to happen before my time,so i cant say 'cause I wasn't there.....but im not completely convinced ostman was either.
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#193 Transformer

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:07 AM

I'll have to research more, but if you get too far East from where I've pegged a possible location for his valley of captivity, then you get toward Highway 99 and the river that flows straight south to Squamish. If his intent was to go South no matter what, then there is a natural valley running directly south to Squamish. From his description he had to be on the west side of the crest of mountains just to the west of Squamish in order to come out at or near Salmon Inlet.

If, as someone suggested, he was mistaken about coming out at Salmon Inlet then it might open up other territory he could have been, but I have to believe that if there is any shred of truth to the story then he had to have the Salmon Inlet correct as he would have been informed by the logging operation where he was.

Still looking, but there doesn't seem to be any hanging valley fitting his description with a SE opening an 6-8 acres of area surrounded by cliffs.

Another thing that folks needs to know, when you look at Google Earth images of the area under question please realize you are looking at mid summer images. The snow that you see is permanent snowfields. Therefore we can rule out any valleys at the highest elevation as they wouldn't support trees or grass fields as he described.


The PGE was in that valley from 1912 from Squamish to the interior of BC and is still running as part of the CNR. Steam engines make a lot of smoke and noise so it is highly doubtful that he would have been in that valley and not been able to find the railroad and hop the train. We can speculate and make all manner of excuses for Ostman's complete lack of any knowlege of the area or terrain or distances or complete lack of any reasonable estimations of daily travel we want but the easiest and most logical explantion is that it is a made up story by someone who never was in the area. That is my opinion.
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#194 Kerchak

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:17 AM

^

Or it 'could' have happened but 30 odd years later he got a lot of the details confused so kind of re-imagined them in order to try and give clarity to his story. He may even have 'thought' what he was recollecting was correct.
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#195 AaronD

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 03:55 AM

Very true, I'm just wondering if they weren't just a group of burly people who happen to live in the woods who took him--again, as pointed out--if it really happened. Animals typically don't kidnap people save for a rogue bear or something like that and then it would be for food.
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#196 vilnoori

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:08 PM

Well, from the head of Toba Inlet to the head of Salmon Inlet is roughly 65 miles as the crow flies. But he doesn't mention crossing Jervis Inlet, which a crow would have to do to travel in such a straight line, and so you have to redraw the line to go around it and probably stay well in the mountains to encounter a hanging valley as is mentioned. Redrawing it that way I get something more like 75 miles. I would say you'd probably have to about double that to account for the ups and downs of real mountain terrain, going around waterways to find easy places to cross them, and just plain bushwhacking (really, anyone who has actually traveled in this kind of terrain knows what I am talking about, it is no cake walk). By comparison locally I have talked to fit people who have climbed one of our local high mountains from the valley floor to the top by foot. It is an all weekend kind of proposition. 2 days up, one day down. And that is just one coastal mountain of moderate height. Most of us when we talk about climbing a mountain here mean using a vehicle to get near the top, then taking a day to climb to the summit and back down, then hopping aboard a 4 wheel drive and driving back down to town. This guy gets off a boat and climbs a mountain from the base. We are talking a very fit guy, with lots of time who knows how to live off the land and he still would have to do considerable traversing, backtracking, etc. to get around obstacles.
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#197 BobbyO

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:24 PM

Yeah i have a real problem with the geography of all this.

I'm very cool with the observation and Sasquatch part of the account, but his Inlet's and time frames are most certainly not adding up.

It's the Sasquatch observations part of the story that's keeping me on it's side now but i' not ruling out Ostman getting much of his geography wrong.
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#198 indiefoot

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:44 PM

He could have fudged the locations to keep the valley from being identified.
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#199 JanV

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 01:00 PM

Read Ivan Sanderson's interview with Albert Ostman in his epic Abominable Snowman of Five Continents. The copper nails reference has always intrigued me.
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#200 Cotter

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 01:53 PM

I find it hard to believe that he could accurately judge distance (and time for that matter) while in a sleeping bag.

That throws a wrench into the distances and what-not as well.

My estimation (read guess) is that the distances are not as great as he thinks they are....
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A message from Peter Byrne....to Pat Beaton:
The last time I met Patterson, at his home in Tampico, WA., the poor fellow was dying, sitting in his back garden on a wooden chair, a veritable skeleton...his fatal illness being Hodgsons disease. He was thoroughly depressed and very angry at the skepticism with which science - and many people - viewed the footage, 
and one of the last things he said to me was..."You know, Peter, we had an opportunity to shoot that thing. Bob had a loaded rifle on it. Maybe that's what we should have done. Then people would believe us."
 

"and incs married to morgan freemans sister.....or something like that  ;)" - Doc Holiday