Incorrigible1

Humans reached Americas 100,000 years earlier than thought

40 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, FarArcher said:

I **** on their dating methods.

 

Theoretically, they should work if you consider only superficial principles - but that's how it's supposed to work in a perfect laboratory controlled environment - 

 

If these methods were so reliable, it would be a simple manner to cross check the various methods with others that overlap the date set.  And they're all over the map.  The variances within those dating methods - one might as well ask a third grader to pick some numbers.

 

As far as that migration foolishness - I've spent some real time in every corner of Alaska one wishes to mention.  During an "Ice Age," or especially during the last Ice Age - Alaska wasn't even covered in ice!  It missed most of Alaska!  

 

They seem to think it's a piece of cake walking hundreds and hundreds of miles without liquid water, without cover, without food, and mostly - without a map.  Why would anyone, or anything EVER go into more and more ice - and into harsher and harsher conditions - when there's no draw - no destination?

 

These "experts" are uninformed, inexperienced, and grasping at the impossible to push a narrative.

 

 

Sometimes going back isn't a choice....

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Of course, you're right.

 

Not long ago, when one was sick and weak, we'd bleed them.

 

That was BS too.

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Posted (edited)

Solutrean hypothesis ... I would not jump on board too quickly but I would not laugh either.    It is gaining traction in some academic circles despite ongoing resistance.  Think about how long it took Wegener's theory of continental drift to be accepted.   It took new developments, not just reassessing existing information, to swing the balance.  In the end, the Solutrean hypothesis may win out over Clovis-first, it may fade back into the background, or both may be replaced by something else entirely.   We've become used to, and insistent on, instant gratification, but science does not work at the pace of our ever-shrinking attention spans.  

 

MIB

Edited by MIB
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The wait and see strategy with the Solutrean Hypothesis is probably best at this point.     Scant evidence(a few points) and controversial dating are hardly definitive.         That ancient projectile points found in Europe would be a historical curiosity and make their way to the Americas carried by more recent Europeans is probably more likely than an early migration by the Solutrean's themselves.     More findings may change that equation however.      Certainly it needs to be studied.       I think the copper mines in the UP of Michigan needs to be looked at too.     No one can explain where all the copper for the bronze age in Europe and the Mediterranean came from but there are those ancient copper mines in North America whose copper seems to have gone someplace.      .  

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But it's a little harder to argue with DNA.

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There's no such thing as "settled science", that amounts to setting it up as a religion, dogmatic, unquestionable, which is antithetical to science itself ... Science the religion with acolytes in lab coats vs science the discipline where anyone can ask and anyone can try to answer.   

 

The point is, science continues to grow and sometimes reverse course as new evidence comes in clusters rather than being evenly distributed.    While the solutrean hypothesis is heretical in the eyes of the Scientific Establishment, "rumors of its death are premature".   It remains a candidate by those who practice science instead of Science.

 

MIB

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Sadly DNA is arguable with respect to a species that has yet to accepted and DNA typed and mapped.    Norseman's BF body is about the only thing that will get that process done.        Once you have a BF on the lab table and tie it's DNA to that body,  DNA found from that point on will be accepted.     Then we can just use methods like they are starting to use in Europe and look for DNA in soil at the bottom of caves and other locations.   

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11 hours ago, norseman said:

 

 

Quote

 

An abstract in a 2012 issue of the "American Journal of Physical Anthropology" states that "The similarities in ages and geographical distributions for C4c and the previously analyzed X2a lineage provide support to the scenario of a dual origin for Paleo-Indians. Taking into account that C4c is deeply rooted in the Asian portion of the mtDNA phylogeny and is indubitably of Asian origin, the finding that C4c and X2a are characterized by parallel genetic histories definitively dismisses the controversial hypothesis of an Atlantic glacial entry route into North America."[18]

A 2015 report re-evaluates the evidence. Stating the possibility that evidence might be uncovered that supports a trans-Atlantic migration, they state that "X2a has not been found anywhere in Eurasia, and phylogeography gives us no compelling reason to think it is more likely to come from Europe than from Siberia. Furthermore, analysis of the complete genome of Kennewick Man, who belongs to the most basal lineage of X2a yet identified, gives no indication of recent European ancestry and moves the location of the deepest branch of X2a to the West Coast, consistent with X2a belonging to the same ancestral population as the other founder mitochondrial haplogroups. Nor have any high-resolution studies of genome-wide data from Native American populations yielded any evidence of Pleistocene European ancestry or trans-Atlantic gene flow."

 

 

 

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There are many recorded instances of fisherman from Kiribati, Micronesia and as far away as Japan drifting to Central and South America. And a few of Mexican and Central Americans ending up in The Marshall Islands and The Philippines. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/borne-on-a-black-current-31467673/

 

Some fringe sources have said, the copper mines areas around the Great Lakes were littered with signs of Celtic inhabitants, Iberian and Brittanic. The Irish had a name, that I can't remember, that translated to "Sun Downer" or from way over the horizon to the west for Celtic traders that would show up every few years. 

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http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2012/03/new-evidence-supports-solutrean.html

 

At the core of Stanford’s case are stone tools recovered from five mid-Atlantic sites. Two sites lie on Chesapeake Bay islands, suggesting that the Solutreans settled Delmarva early on. Smithsonian research associate Darrin Lowery found blades, anvils and other tools found stuck in soil at least 20,000 years old [note only the soil can be reliably dated, not the artifacts themselves]...

Further, the Eastern Shore blades strongly resemble those found at dozens of Solutrean sites from the Stone Age in Spain and France, Stanford says. “We can match each one of 18 styles up to the sites in Europe.”..

Stone tools recovered from two other mid-Atlantic sites — Cactus Hills, Va., 45 miles south of Richmond, and Meadowcroft Rockshelter, in southern Pennsylvania — date to at least 16,000 years ago. Those tools, too, strongly resemble blades found in Europe...

“The reason people don’t like the Solutrean idea is the ocean,” he said. No Solutrean boats have been found. But given that people arrived in Australia some 60,000 years ago — and they didn’t walk there — wood-frame and seal-skin boats were clearly possible, Stanford argues... 

 

 

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On 5/6/2017 at 10:47 PM, norseman said:

http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2012/03/new-evidence-supports-solutrean.html

 

At the core of Stanford’s case are stone tools recovered from five mid-Atlantic sites. Two sites lie on Chesapeake Bay islands, suggesting that the Solutreans settled Delmarva early on. Smithsonian research associate Darrin Lowery found blades, anvils and other tools found stuck in soil at least 20,000 years old [note only the soil can be reliably dated, not the artifacts themselves]...

Further, the Eastern Shore blades strongly resemble those found at dozens of Solutrean sites from the Stone Age in Spain and France, Stanford says. “We can match each one of 18 styles up to the sites in Europe.”..

Stone tools recovered from two other mid-Atlantic sites — Cactus Hills, Va., 45 miles south of Richmond, and Meadowcroft Rockshelter, in southern Pennsylvania — date to at least 16,000 years ago. Those tools, too, strongly resemble blades found in Europe...

“The reason people don’t like the Solutrean idea is the ocean,” he said. No Solutrean boats have been found. But given that people arrived in Australia some 60,000 years ago — and they didn’t walk there — wood-frame and seal-skin boats were clearly possible, Stanford argues... 

 

 

Solutrean boats would have likely been animal skin covered wood frames as were most early human boats and those used by the NA in Northern Latitudes coming into historical times.       Unless one melts out of a glacier someplace it is unlikely that such a boat dating back that far could be found.    Grease sealed animal skins are hardly something stable enough to survive very long.     But there is evidence of such boats used in NW Europe before wood boats came into use.     As you say the spread of mankind through Polynesia and down into Australia pretty much required either boats or some advanced intelligence moving humans around.    So humanity has a history with boats going back a very long time.  

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https://www.amazon.ca/Brendan-Voyage-Across-Atlantic-Leather/dp/0717139271

 

 

41VrxA9SzfL._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

 

It has been described as the greatest epic voyage in modern Irish history. Tim Severin and his companions built a boat using only techniques and materials available in the sixth-century A.D., when St Brendan was supposed to have sailed to America. The vessel comprised forty-nine ox hides stitched together in a patchwork and stretched over a wooden frame (emphasis added). This leather skin was only a quarter of an inch thick. Yet Severin and his crew sailed Brendan from Brandon Creek in Dingle to Newfoundland, surviving storms and a puncture from pack ice. The Brendan Voyage is Tim Severin's dramatic account of their journey. This new edition of a book already translated into twenty-seven languages introduces a new generation of readers to an enduring classic. Tim Severin didn't prove St Brendan reached America, only that he could have, that it was possible. Brilliantly written, The Brendan Voyage conveys unforgettably the sensation of being in a small, open boat in the vastness of the North Atlantic, visited by inquisitive whales, reaching mist-shrouded landfalls, and receiving a welcome from seafaring folk wherever the crew touched land.

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