A Ground-Breaking Study Of An Unknown Language From Sierra Sounds

[Guest]

Yeah Ray, I'm impressed by his title. LOL Your can be a laugh.

What I was impressed by was the process he went through to deconstruct the multitudes of sounds he heard in those recordings, find patterns, isolating the tones, and many other elements. If he's able to eventually reconstruct words, and then meaning, and eventually even build sentences as a result, then absolutely, more power to him! The more recordings he has access too, will offer to help validate existing recordings as they cross check one another for additional patterns. Make sense? Same process with any learning curve.

His military background probably gives him the added discipline to go through the rigorous steps in breaking down the different parts of the speech he is working with. But I am in no way placing his skills entirely on that specific background Ray. You shouldn't either. Scott Nelson is fluent in quite a few languages, and this, as well as his military training, along with his obvious skill at dealing with speech in a way you can only dream of, gives him the needed credentials to take on the task he is. Maybe you ought to buy a dvd of his presentation from the OSS Ray? You might appreciate what he's doing a little more.

And as for myself, no I haven't served in the military. Missed Nam by 1 year. My bad.

Let's see, I used the word crypto Linguist ONE TIME in this entire thread Ray. Get that, ONE TIME. You so far have used it SIX TIMES. So who here's got the title hang-up? Or is it just the same old effort to discount people who make progress in this field?

I got to spend a few days around Scott Nelson and Ron Moorehead at the OSS along with listening to his presentation. I am convinced that he is 100% sincere in what he is doing. And that, along with listening to his presentation, allow me to speak positively in support of his efforts.

Maybe this will help you out:

Source: http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/Bigfootlanguage.html

R. Scott Nelson is a retired U.S. Navy Crypto-Linguist with over 30 years experience in Foreign Language and Linguistics, including the Collection, Transcription, Analysis and Reporting of voice communications.

He is a two time graduate of the U.S. Navy Cryptologic Voice Transcription School (Russian and Spanish) and has logged thousands of hours of voice transcription in his target languages as well as in Persian. He is currently teaching Russian, Spanish, Persian, Philosophy and Comparative Religions at Wentworth College in Missouri.

His pertinent Curriculum Vitae Follows:

R. Scott Nelson

Curriculum Vitae

Eleven years on the Faculty of Philosophy and Languages at Wentworth College,

Lexington, Missouri; teaching Russian, Persian and Spanish as well several Philosophy and Religion courses.

Retired U.S. Navy Cryptologic Technician Interpreter (Crypto-Linguist), worked for Naval Intelligence at the following duty stations: Naval Security Group Activity (NSGA), Rota, Spain; Naval Security Group Detachment Galeta Island, Panama; NSGA Homestead, Florida; NSGA Edzell, Scotland and aboard the following afloat units:

USS Coronado, USS Belknap, USS Deyo, USS Bigelow, USS Sphynx; serving in the Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea and Persian Gulf.

Two time graduate of the Defense Language Institute, Foreign Language Center, Monterey, California (Russian and Spanish).

Two time graduate of the U.S. Navy Cryptologic Voice Transcription School at Naval Security Group Detachment (NSGD), San Angelo, Texas (Russian and Spanish).

Graduate of U.S. Navy Communications Intelligence Analysis and Reporting School at NSGD, San Angelo, Texas.

Acquired the Persian Language while assigned to afloat platforms in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. These platforms had Persian as their primary target language.

Logged thousands of hours of collection and transcription of voice communications as a Cryptologic Interpreter for the U.S. Navy.

If anybody can make sense of the sounds being made by Sasquatch, I believe Scott Nelson can. What I was highly impressed by Ray, was his ability to enunciate even the slightest part of a syllable or vowel. He really is a master in being able to form the many components that go into speech. You should listen to him, especially as he speaks the many different languages he is fluent at. And the more sources he has to eventually work from, the greater the final product will become for everyone.

OK?

[Guest RayG]

I'm familiar with his resume, the link you provided, and the training and work conditions involved in becoming a crypto-linguist. So yes, it looks like you are impressed by his claims/title, while I am not, and for good reason. Regardless of how sincere he is, or what equipment he trots out, nothing in his background or qualifications enables him to decipher/translate an unknown/unrecognized language.

Here's a pretty good snapshot of the job description:

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/navy/jobs/CryptologicLinguist/

Believing his training enables him to decipher bigfoot/sasquatch language would be similar to believing that the guy who only pumps gas and changes your oil is qualified to replace your entire engine.

Or that because someone has a license to drive a car, it somehow qualifies them to fly an alien spacecraft.

RayG

[indiefoot]

So Ray, are you proposing that folks without the proper degrees and credentials can't make discoveries? If Mr. Nelson's work is reviewed by those you would approve of academically, why would it matter who did the original work. Nothing is established until it's been verified, right.

[Guest]

Ray, your reputation proceeds you and you no doubt have attempted to criticize Nelson's background before. Is it that you really must find whatever little perceived shortcomings of any findings there are in support of sasquatch, and exploit those however you can, regardless of & excluding all the positive value of someone's work, which could possibly positively predominate an issue instead? Is it merely your role to discount whatever comes along from those who do have credentials, when you can where you can?

You seem to be the one here with the 'bleep' over his crypto title Ray. Maybe try not being so dependent on the 'Crypto' part or even the military component of his skills? Maybe be a little less prejudiced due to your overall limited views on the existence (or lack thereof) of Sasquatch? Could that be your actual motivation herein? Scott Nelson demonstrated he is a skilled language specialist at the presentation I saw. Not of one language but many. In addition, its his skills in breaking down the pieces of words that is where you might try to open your consideration of him a bit. Its his 'Linguistics and language' background that is what you might focus on instead of the Crypto Mil part of deciphering messages as the limits of his training. Can you humble yourself just enough to consider the linguistics & multiple language component of his skills instead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics

And to minimize his 'Crypto'-Linguist title by showing us an entry-level military job description, is a pretty shoddy method of attempting to undermine someone's wider range of language skills & experience, when frankly you probably have little knowledge of his personal skills except based on your deeply ingrained doubt and over-focus on the limited title workload. Again, his military title is not an accurate portrayal of the person and not at all descriptive of his wider range of skills. That is your shortcoming in this debate. Your relying on a single element. But its your choice to remain stuck where you are in excluding the other elements of his background, skills that don't conform to the small mold you want him to fit within.

Maybe you're actually somewhat stuck in the dogmatic position of not allowing yourself to be generous of other people's progress? Anyway, try reading some of the definition of what is entailed in Language Linguistics Ray, you might be a little more appreciative of his overall background that extends beyond the limits you want to ascribe to him. Eleven years in Language Studies BEFORE entering the military, and more during to further expand his base. There's more to the man's abilities than you are allowing. Maybe even attend one of his presentations? But in so doing, don't wear the banner over your shoulders to 'not accept anything he has to say no matter what', because you won't get anything positive from it if you do.

Best,

Edited November 27, 2010 by Splash7
Remove offending word

[Guest]

Ray, your reputation proceeds you

Exactly what reputation are you referring to, PT? That sounds like a nice form of name calling. Correct me if I am wrong.

You seem to be the one here with the 'bleep' over his crypto title Ray.

I believe that there are a few others here, that are not impressed with his crypto title, especially when it comes to deciphering a bigfoot language. (And watch your language, PT.)

Scott Nelson demonstrated he is a skilled language specialist at the presentation I saw. Not of one language but many.

So where does Mr. Nelson get his skill at deciphering an unknown language? You know, a bigfoot language? From a recording that is not even proven to be a bigfoot? From a recording that could very well have been produced by humans making gibberish sounds?

The only point, that people don't seem to understand, is that as good as Mr. Nelson is at the job he was trained for, he is "not" trained to decipher "bigfootish".

[Guest RayG]

If Mr. Nelson wants someone to academically approve of his work, then maybe he should submit it to the Linguistic Society of America, or other gatherings of linguists, for starters. Further, since he is supposedly the first person on the planet to analyze and phoneticize bigfoot language, he should probably be submitting this ground-breaking work to the applicable scientific field, not a gathering of unquestioning bigfooters.

RayG

[Guest]

Exactly what reputation are you referring to, PT? That sounds like a nice form of name calling. Correct me if I am wrong.

Um, YES, You are wrong! Why even go there? I am referring to his prior position discounting Nelson and others.

I believe that there are a few others here, that are not impressed with his crypto title, especially when it comes to deciphering a bigfoot language. (And watch your language, PT.)

You are correct re the bleep, a loose term application I used, I could have probably selected another...

So where does Mr. Nelson get his skill at deciphering an unknown language? You know, a bigfoot language? From a recording that is not even proven to be a bigfoot? From a recording that could very well have been produced by humans making gibberish sounds?

The only point, that people don't seem to understand, is that as good as Mr. Nelson is at the job he was trained for, he is "not" trained to decipher "bigfootish".

As for his deciphering bigfoot language, that does seem to be the crux of the issue isn't it? And so I am defending him when someone else doesn't seem to be relying on accurate information. That is cool right?

Your question however makes me wonder if you are even familiar with his entire methodology? Take some time understanding what he does Splash, more then a cursory review. He doesn't sit there hearing a word and applying a definition. You realize that right? He's trying to essentially break down the alphabet from its basic structural elements. You could apply the same rule to any species, just as others are trying with intelligent species like Dolphin. Were they trained to decipher or speak Dolfinish Splash? lol No, they took their skills in linguistics and other necessary fields, and applied them as best as science can. The same as people are trying to do with Elephants, some birds like Ravens, even other primates. There is no prerequisite of having to be fluent in the language to begin understanding its components. That's how humans have always come to learn about other cultures too. And if they are early human (as MANY believe), then the premise you deny is even more so acceptable.

However if there are indeed more then one race/type as you and I previously discussed, his task may be much more complex then even he realizes. Time will tell.

Moorehead also addressed the possibility of it being humans (or actually lack-of possibility), late at night in the mountainous undisclosed area of the Sierras that they arrived at via pack horse. If you can bring yourself to believe the sincerity of he and Berry's endeavors at the time, then they had established there were no other humans around Splash. And if you've heard a bigfoot, you'd know the difference between the vocalizations of one vs. a small diaphragm pip-squeak human. You don't FEEL a human's voice reverberating through your bones up on a mountain.

But if some don't want to rely on claims of successful researchers, then why do they even bother exploring the mystery? Well I guess its because the nay-sayers can be ignored and because exploring methodologies like his is the nature of our mystery. The application of a multitude of techniques by a wide range of fields to approach the subject is what we actually need to foster, not dissuade. I rather choose to pursue the hints of truth I see, based on repeated claims coming from sincere individuals. Claims that often corroborate my own experience.

I find it ironic that when so many have expounded the desire to see more of sciences enlisted in the field, when someone does apply his field of expertise, they are systematically discounted for it. Many in the bigfooting field may well their own worst enemy.

[Guest Spazmo]

If Mr. Nelson wants someone to academically approve of his work, then maybe he should submit it to the Linguistic Society of America, or other gatherings of linguists, for starters. Further, since he is supposedly the first person on the planet to analyze and phoneticize bigfoot language, he should probably be submitting this ground-breaking work to the applicable scientific field, not a gathering of unquestioning bigfooters.

RayG

Well, don't you think it would work out better if he finished the work before submitting it to anyone?

However, I'll agree that making presentations at BF conventions is probably a bad idea if you want to be taken seriously by the scientific community.

[Guest]

If Mr. Nelson wants someone to academically approve of his work, then maybe he should submit it to the Linguistic Society of America, or other gatherings of linguists, for starters. Further, since he is supposedly the first person on the planet to analyze and phoneticize bigfoot language, he should probably be submitting this ground-breaking work to the applicable scientific field, not a gathering of unquestioning bigfooters.

RayG

Well, don't you think it would work out better if he finished the work before submitting it to anyone?

However, I'll agree that making presentations at BF conventions is probably a bad idea if you want to be taken seriously by the scientific community.

Exactly Spazmo, he offered the premise up front that the work he's doing is a work in progress, and just the beginning in trying to understand them, not some final product.

He took the avenue that if there is any way to locate other recordings from around the US, he's going to have to share what he's done thus far with those closest to it. He never submitted that his work was conclusive either, and that is by design. As far as I know, he's also had no illusion about the early stages of his work. Ray, why would he submit it for academic approval when its a work in progress?

However I do think many well known discoveries of our time started out the very same way. That is what allows us to incrementally move forward in whatever field it is. He's trying to reach those who are most exposed to sasquatch and may retain similar vocalizations. What better way to build the record of similar data, but to reach those in the field who are there to acquire it? He sure won't find similar sasquatch vocalizations at the Linguistics Society Ray, especially when I don't think they've entered Bigfootish into their list of acceptable languages, or species for that matter.

[Guest]

PT, you make a wonderful argument for Mr. Nelson and what he is trying to accomplish.

However, you seem to still be missing the "big piece of the puzzle". He is analyzing a recording that cannot be proven to be from bigfoot.

I wonder if you will be so enthused with his work if it is proven that the recordings were made by humans just using a bunch of gibberish?

The Sierra Sounds were recorded to make money, not help with the research of bigfoot.

I would imagine that Mr. Nelson is doing the same thing.

[Guest]

Thank you Splash for the argument compliment, but its not my effort here that should be complimented.

The question of validity as to the recordings has been argued hundreds of times long before this thread. Kinda like Patty has been argued no? Do you believe Patty to be real or a costume Splash? You say you've seen a Sas, so I'm guessing you lean on Patty being real? If you'd heard a Sas, would you maybe understand and feel different about these recordings? I say different because once you've heard one vocalize in some bone chilling fashion at close proximity, you KNOW that under no plausible explanation, a person could possibly make the sounds you just heard. Kinda like having an African Lion roar in your face. (OK, I've never actually had that happen, but the analogy really makes my point. lol )

Those recordings are over 30 years old too. So far I don't believe anybody has been able to prove they were made by humans. On the other hand, one scientist has gone on record after a year long study of the tapes, concluding that there is no way a human could produce the sounds that were recorded. In addition, another Linguist had similar findings in her study of the recordings. Now Scott Nelson comes along to further the work of others. I think its a pretty **** good evolution of research methods on a mystery that requires the expertise being obtained, don't you?

So actually, the recordings have been proven to not possibly be able to come from humans based on prior scientific study.

The Sierra Sounds were recorded to make money, not help with the research of bigfoot.

I would imagine that Mr. Nelson is doing the same thing.

That seems kinda serious to allege profit as both their sole agendas, especially when 30 years ago Moorehead and Berry were actually out hunting game, not intending to stumble on the greatest mystery of their life. Where is the evidence that this was their plan back then? That would then appear to require Mr. Nelson to knowingly enter an existing hoax, if the original goal of "not help with the research of bigfoot" doesn't infer an honest agenda within such a long term project endorsed by other scientists. You're not saying that are you Splash, because I personally view a much more altruistic endeavor in their work.

[Guest RayG]

Exactly Spazmo, he offered the premise up front that the work he's doing is a work in progress, and just the beginning in trying to understand them, not some final product.

Not so. He's already established a phonetic alphabet and transcription standard for bigfoot/sasquatch language, and says so on the website.

Ray, why would he submit it for academic approval when its a work in progress?

Why not, he asks that his conclusions be "published on research web-sites and that it be copied and distributed freely". There seems to be no point in publishing his conclusions on bigfoot websites, how many other linguists would you expect to find there, so as requested, I've taken the liberty of forwarding his claims/conclusions to the Linguistic Society of America, a professional society for linguists, as well as the LINGUIST list, a web site/mailing list to enable professional communication and networking between the world-wide community of linguists, to get their thoughts and comments.

He sure won't find similar sasquatch vocalizations at the Linguistics Society Ray, especially when I don't think they've entered Bigfootish into their list of acceptable languages, or species for that matter.

I have no idea what vocalizations they may or may not have, but shouldn't his phonetic alphabet and transcription standard be examined by those with similar or greater expertise, to ensure he's at least laid down a solid foundation?

Eleven years in Language Studies BEFORE entering the military, and more during to further expand his base.

Really? Where did you get that from? It seems at odds with this:

• He joined the U.S. Navy at an early age and served for 17 years as a Russian and Spanish interpreter as well as serving one tour in the Persian Gulf as a tactical Persian linguist.

RayG

[Guest]

Not so. He's already established a phonetic alphabet and transcription standard for bigfoot/sasquatch language, and says so on the website.

I didn't see you at his presentation here in Eugene at the OSS Ray, where he acknowledged that as more recordings become available, they will become part of the product. His analysis IS OF the Sierra Sounds ONLY and thus only includes those limited language components. Do even you conclude that a few nights of recordings would comprise the entirety of the Sasquatch Language, sufficient to be considered worthy of submission to any academic circles? Herein lies the difference, he submitted it to the bigfoot field, AS PART of a work in progress process. Even you can see the logic of that can't you Ray? Try being a little honest with yourself. I would think that even you can recognize a handful of vocalizations would in no way comprise an entire species language right? You are smart enough to realize that right?

Why not, he asks that his conclusions be "published on research web-sites and that it be copied and distributed freely". There seems to be no point in publishing his conclusions on bigfoot websites, how many other linguists would you expect to find there, so as requested, I've taken the liberty of forwarding his claims/conclusions to the Linguistic Society of America, a professional society for linguists, as well as the LINGUIST list, a web site/mailing list to enable professional communication and networking between the world-wide community of linguists, to get their thoughts and comments.

Ray, your doing such a thing is one of the most mean spirited vindictive actions I have ever witnessed. What gives YOU the 'right' to submit HIS work to any academic circles of HIS peers? Admins, right now I am having a real hard time not using some very harsh names towards this person who really now just intends to embarrass someone in his field of expertise. RAY, what gives you the right to submit HIS work to HIS professional organizations? YOU know damned well that the overall acceptance of Sasquatch WOULD be the required premise for any group to unbiasedly review ANY such material. You also know that his intent right now is to reach bigfooters. If he felt his work was ready for what you ascribed, its HIS decision to go there not yours. Maybe there is one reason and one reason only why you would do such a thing? Is it your intent to get your kicks over someone else's potential public embarrassment by his peers? Is that how you get off Ray? You must be a very angry and *&%^$ (my symbols) person inside to want to embarrass anyone in their profession like that? Don't you think that if he felt his work was ready for that, then he would not have done it himself? WHEN HE FELT THE WORK WAS READY!!!! Oh but wait, you do know that don't you? You just stepped far outside the bounds of any moral, ethical, or honorable role as a human being Ray! Why should anybody professional, ever respect your position after that? I hope those over at JREF would admonish such an action as being outside the bounds of acceptable professional conduct. If they are the responsible group they claim to be, then they will. Maybe everyone here should let your peers know about how you take liberties for other professionals, because YOU feel its your right to do so? I will however take the liberty to Report your actions herein with the forum, because you went far outside the bounds of what is considered decent behavior towards someone who is not even here.

I have no idea what vocalizations they may or may not have, but shouldn't his phonetic alphabet and transcription standard be examined by those with similar or greater expertise, to ensure he's at least laid down a solid foundation?

That's NOT your call Ray! You obviously have little concept of boundaries. How vindictive can someone be? Where do you get off Ray? You have no idea what vocalizations they may or may not have, yet you took a liberty of such venomous proportions? You are simply being vindictive in your self rationalization of your above actions. You know better! Any reasonable person would conclude that it is premature to assume that any professional society would be ready to assess ANYTHING about the existence of Sasquatch. Of course, you apparently are NOT a reasonable person are you? What gave you the stinkin right to go after people in their private lives? You've abused the information you gained at BFF. I hope the new BFF takes just as reasonable action against you as you've clearly allocated to yourself of another.

Again, he submitted to bigfoot circles because he wants to get the word out to them so as to incorporate other documented recordings of Sasquatch. Your actions would assume that Linguist groups are in the field and have already adopted the position that there is something to research. But as you are completely aware, that isn't the case for most of the world. His work isn't complete either in the context you just applied it. His intent is to get the word out to other sasquatch researchers who are exposed to such vocalizations in the field who may have it. THAT WAS HIS INTENT ONLY, TO REACH THE BIGFOOT FIELD! So if you claim to only do what he wanted, show me where the specific Linguist groups you CITE fit that description or where he even wanted to submit his work prematurely to academia. You must have selective reading and very skewed thought process to rationalize your actions? That or something else is at work to motivate you?

Really? Where did you get that from? It seems at odds with this:

• He joined the U.S. Navy at an early age and served for 17 years as a Russian and Spanish interpreter as well as serving one tour in the Persian Gulf as a tactical Persian linguist.

Just what does early age mean Ray? Do you see a thorough description of his education and profession in that link you've provided? That paragraph description you provided just encompassed around 40 years of his life. You don't think through things very well do you?

RayG

Excuse me Admins but I am very angry right now (and rightfully so), and doing my best to contain such anger. But Ray just went far outside the bounds of decent behavior in any professional circle by submitting someone's paper where he had no moral or written authority to do so. Nor when it was completed in that context, or written with that purpose in mind! Since when is the submission of any paper to any professional circle asking for their input, not at the discretion of the writer? RayG twisted the intended goal of Mr. Nelson's paper. Mr. Nelson's paper wasn't addressed to any Linguistic Groups or written for that purpose, it was addressed and designed for this field so that we would gain. If Mr. Nelson felt his paper were ready for peer review in HIS particular field, then he would have addressed it in that fashion. He didn't do that, thus RayG had no right to do what he did. I submit that Ray violated rules of conduct and behavior that would be expected in any field. I submit that he was being vindictive in his actions.

[indiefoot]

I was under the impression Nelson was putting it out there to BF circles to elicit further examples of recorded language in an effort to further the study. To submit the paper to scientific review before it is completed is akin to "poisoning the well". Cheap shot, IMO.

[Guest]

Excuse me, but exactly what is it you expect the Admin and Mods of a Bigfoot forum to do about Ray's actions regarding the submission of Mr. Nelson's work? It had nothing to do with his behavior on this forum.

You also seem to take a lot of stock in a person's presentation at a Bigfoot Conference. Was the OSS your first conference? It seems to have left quite an impression.

Edited November 28, 2010 by JohnCartwright