Migration

[BobbyO]

Thank you big tree, I've recently downloaded info on all 11 WA State Herds of Elk including that one and just now need to take the time to read it.

There is a poster on here ( ex now unfortunately ) whose brother works directly with what that paper is all about and is a tribal member, does population counts from a chopper etc.

We had pizza together last time I was out in WA, had a great night too.

Both the brother and member have seen them up there where that paper focuses on.

Thanks again.

Edited March 23, 2015 by BobbyO

[BigTreeWalker]

BobbyO,

That one caught my attention because of evidence of elk predation we have found near the southern terminus of that herd. I thought the correlation you found in CO with mule deer migration and a shift in bigfoot sightings interesting.

I think they are opportunistic and move with or to the easiest obtainable and/or available food supply. But I also think that unless we are very observant their feeding could and probably is attributed to other animals. Otherwise their existence could have been proven long ago.

Edited March 23, 2015 by BigTreeWalker

[Guest]

I think when an area gets a lot of human activity they move further out to more desolate perhaps isolated area based on my field observations and reports I reviewed. I am speaking strictly state wildlife gaming areas though. Areas where they were once known to be coinciding with local hunters and hikers complaints of not seeing any wildlife, no deer, rabbit, and where the fishing may be poor in certain wildlife areas where they were once abundant points to movement.

 

For me clear indications of their movement out of the area for time being might be the obvious first - no fresh sightings. Secondly, it would be confirmed by old signs or evidence of Bigfoot habitat at one time, such as trees thrashed, battered and broken trees in specific areas with no obvious or recent storm activity; old tree and stick formations or tree twists, and old foot tracks without any new signs or evidence or scat found.

 

I don’t believe they leave forever however, they will pass through the area as the human traffic dies down and wildlife returns unless the area is developed … Just my thoughts.    

Edited March 25, 2015 by Gumshoeye

[BigTreeWalker]

Gumshoeye,

These are some personal observations, deductions and conclusions about the area where we hunt elk in the Gifford Pinchot NF.

We have been archery hunting this area for the last 10 years. Over that period of time we have seen a noticeable decrease in elk numbers in the area. Last year I talked to someone who had been hunting the area for the last 30 years and said he has noted a decrease over that whole period of time. He attributed it to the lack of new clear-cuts in the area. Logging was halted in the area in the mid to late 90's (spotted owl). However, I don't think it is that simple. If the numbers were higher 30 years ago that was also the time they started logging this area. So the larger numbers couldn't be attributed to more clear-cuts until later. However, hunting pressure did increase over this period of time.

It is an either sex archery hunting area. I have read research that says the thing that can harm an elk population the most is the harvest of mature breeding age cows. The killing of calves, as is done by most predators, doesn't have nearly as much effect. Yet hunters may not be the whole cause either because during that same 10 year period of time we have noted a decrease in hunting pressure also, and still there is a decrease in elk numbers.

The decrease could be weather related; however, we have been having some pretty mild winters lately. It doesn't even frost as early as it used to. So I don't think that is the reason.

Now we get to some recent discoveries that we have made. In or near this area we have found elk and deer kills that can be tied by forensic evidence to an unknown predator. We are currently compiling what we have found into a paper which will be released shortly.

Whether this "hunter" or human hunters is what is having an effect on elk populations in this area... I honestly don't know.

[Guest]

^^^

BT Walker, Pardon me but I had to check the location of Gifford Pinchot National Forest and I see it is south of Mt. Ranier and east of Mt. St. Helens. The last time I was in Washington, I drove through Puyallup up into Mt. Ranier until I couldn’t drive any further due to snowy conditions. I went picking through the White River which was nearly dry for rocks or anything I could find … All of that area is pretty darn dense forested area and I can’t imagine what it may look like in the Gifford Pinchot. Well, from what described sounds curiously interesting to me, do you find a lot of evidence or possible indications of tree breaks and or stick formations? All that area is pretty isolated, I can’t imagine they Bigfoot would leave but as I mentioned earlier, they may well follow the food source. If the fishing and game is scarce it’s possible they are being consumed in large volumes.

 

I’m curious and noticed you mentioned finding some deer and elk kills are they single finds or caches?  Down below I listed a couple instances of how some of these games are found with associated Bigfoot/ Sasquatch activity. Over here in the Midwest, I probably have a half dozen or more such instances of multiple deer kills or other wild game. Have you seen or heard of these types of carcass finds if not, I don’t know it would be hard to say but something to consider nonetheless. Have you spoken to local fisherman or other game hunters in the area? What do they say?

 

Hiking, Caves

1979 Summer

Muskegon County, Michigan

“I saw on one walk an animal of tall stature, many "bear dens" and deer carcasses cached high in trees. I saw bone pillars. Piles of bones stacked two and three feet high in a very dense area of the wood. I will tell you, there are more than one type of "bigfoot" living out there, the larger more reported, and a smaller not so reported. The smaller has closer to humanlike features, and resides in upper Michigan. Bone piles were from multiple animals, medium to small, mammal and fish. Fish were clearly identifiable as well as rabbit and muskrat. The two bone piles were about five feet apart. I had taken was along the deer trail, up from the creek, and between the two large dens, might have been a bit stupid that. I was traveling east to west, about twenty feet from the "den" area, and a hundred or so feet from another area with den-like hollows, That is when grunting and thrashing, like tree shaking began, directly behind me and to the right "north" of me, which cut me off from the trail and sent me through the woods an area not clear. It was pitch black that night and I honestly didn't feel looking was the wise choice...I ran. The creature pursued and was making a great deal more noise than myself. I was herded; I was not allowed to go north, but straight west to the road. Once I hit the road, I kept running, but the creature stopped pursuit a few yards short of the tree line, I believe because there was a lighter darkness due to loss of tree cover, and I may have been what it considered a safe distance away from what it protected. Whatever the reason it chose to stop. The heavy steps told me this was something that outweighed me considerably. The one directly behind was in charge of the chase. It was too big to be a large cat, and the vocals did not match a bear, that and it sounded bipedal. “

 

Hiking, Caves, Carcasses

2004 July 25 – 1:00A

Franklin County, Alabama

“Were walking by a large stream and many caves saw something on a bluff sitting with its arms on its legs and it stood up and it was huge. Found a deer its mouth and nose had been crushed and its insides taken out there was nothing there but the deer’s bones skin and muscle and it was tied together in a knot by its own legs and muscle it was amazing.â€

 

Hunter, Caves, Carcasses

1975 November

Dodge County , Wisconsin

“When the DNR was platting the marsh, they found caves and 15 - 20 gutted deer carcasses were stacked up outside of them. Telling me there have been weird happenings in the area for 30 - 40 years.â€

Edited March 26, 2015 by Gumshoeye

[BigTreeWalker]

Gumshoeye,

The areas where I hunt and spend research time are above 3500' so most of the tree damage I have witnessed is due to snow or wind damage. I have found a couple areas where the alders were ripped up broken and thrown every which way. But I attributed these areas to micro-bursts which occur in this area occasionally.

A lot of the Gifford Pinchot NF is still old growth forest. Except the logged areas and creek bottoms where it does get brushy. You can see quite a ways through an old growth forest.

The elk kills I mentioned were single adult females. There were a couple of deer at the deer kill site. I did hear about another area near Mt St Helens where several deer were laid out side by side, found by another researcher.

The areas where I usually hunt or camp are pretty isolated. But as I mentioned in the above post I occasionally talk to other hunters and at least a couple mentioned the scarcity of elk in the area where we hunt.

[Guest]

Hmmmm, well that’s interesting. Don’t elk migrate as well? I think I would take a little note pad or journal and jot down some notes. Maybe get some GPS points and snap some photos and check it the following season. You know, get a feel for what people what others are saying or experience maybe the time of year and see if it develops some obvious patterns. What do you think?

Edited March 26, 2015 by Gumshoeye

[BigTreeWalker]

I do keep a field journal whenever I'm out in the woods. And this area that I'm hunting in hasn't changed as far as the area we hunt and the time we hunt for the last ten years. I have seen no evidence of mass murders. But, this is big rugged country and sometimes bones are hard to find.

Yes elk do migrate. When they do they tend to gather in larger herds, then disperse into smaller groups when they reach the destination. But, in the area we hunt they only move from the higher elevations to the lower elevations (probably less than 5 miles) along the Lewis River. This is mostly snow driven; of which we have had very little or none during archery elk season. (September) The paper I posted above for BobbyO is the southern Mt Rainier herd which comes down to just north of what's called the Dark Divide. We actually hunt the Lewis River which is south of the divide. In the summer I do research up on the divide itself. If you haven't read Robert Michael Pyle's book 'Where Bigfoot Walks Crossing the Dark Divide' I highly recommend it. He does a very good job of describing this area.

Elk do circulate though an area. But when you go from half a dozen herds to 1 or 2 in an area you do notice. These are small herds usually 10 animals or less so sometimes they can be hard to locate in this country and it becomes harder as their numbers dwindle.

[norseman]

When I hunted out of the Lewis river horse camp a while back during rifle season the elk we were seeing were in very small groups. Much smaller groups than Rocky Mtn elk. But there is a lot less feed in that country than say Idaho or Montana.

[BigTreeWalker]

Norseman, you were within a couple of miles of where we hunt. That ridge to the north of there is the Dark Divide. We hunt at about the 3500' level off Rd 93 which is the road the Lewis River Horse Camp is located on.

I've heard it said that even though this part of Washington is green the nutritional value of the vegetation is less than it is in eastern Washington and the drier areas. Due to the rainfall and poorer soils. Don't know how that would effect bigfoot. Probably has to eat more elk :-)

[Guest]

When I hunted out of the Lewis river horse camp a while back during rifle season the elk we were seeing were in very small groups. Much smaller groups than Rocky Mtn elk. But there is a lot less feed in that country than say Idaho or Montana.

 

Just wondering aloud, but aren’t they cyclical animals meaning as migratory animals they move following water and food sources themselves? Could that be an explanation for sudden changes in local habitation patterns?  Or are they suddenly falling prey to over-predation by man and animal (Sasquatch/Bigfoots).

[BigTreeWalker]

They do circulate through an area. Water is not much of a problem in western Washington even in the driest years. If they didn't move they would denude an area of vegetation pretty quickly. There are many factors for a possible decrease in numbers, environmental and otherwise. The decrease I have mentioned has been over years (a decade). It hasn't been a sudden thing. Who knows, it could be because there are no new clearcuts in the area for the last 15-20 years.

If bigfoot does prey on mature cow elk, and as I said we have found evidence that they do, then any increase in population would be very slow to occur. In this instance BF may move into an area with a higher concentration of prey species. Of course, if bigfoot eats any of the same vegetation that elk feed on, then a decrease in elk would mean an increase in this vegetation. Lots of variables to look at!

[Guest]

Yeah it sure is puzzling. A better guess maybe they maybe following the migratory movements while steadily depleting the herds while the elk have steep obstacles to hurdle if that is accurate considering other predators i.e. wolves and bear and human hunters as well.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Gumshoeye

[BobbyO]

With my admittedly only glances at Elk studies so far, I initially thought the Elk especially in Western WA were pretty much well accounted for especially where the specific split management of the individual herds were concerned.

I may be wrong though but that's what my initial thought was.

That's certainly not the case for Deer however who number in the hundreds of thousands in the State.

There was one interesting tidbit I took from one of the WA Elk herds though.

The reports said that the North Cascades herd ( Nooksack herd ) remained low due to unaccounted for mortality rates were stopping or at least stump ingot he growth of that specific herd.

Of course that doesn't mean that that is all down to Sasquatch but if Sasquatch were preying on Elk in that region, a region with a rich history of Sasquatch reports, they would fall into that category.

I'll make a start on that herd and their seasonal distribution and tie it up with the sightings to see what they say, if anything.

Edited March 27, 2015 by BobbyO

[Guest]

With my admittedly only glances at Elk studies so far, I initially thought the Elk especially in Western WA were pretty much well accounted for especially where the specific split management of the individual herds were concerned.

I may be wrong though but that's what my initial thought was.

That's certainly not the case for Deer however who number in the hundreds of thousands in the State.

There was one interesting tidbit I took from one of the WA Elk herds though.

The reports said that the North Cascades herd ( Nooksack herd ) remained low due to unaccounted for mortality rates were stopping or at least stump ingot he growth of that specific herd.

Of course that doesn't mean that that is all down to Sasquatch but if Sasquatch were preying on Elk in that region, a region with a rich history of Sasquatch reports, they would fall into that category.

I'll make a start on that herd and their seasonal distribution and tie it up with the sightings to see what they say, if anything.

 

"Uhuh, well that interesting, thanks Bobby O … The question of whether or not the stifled growth is due in part by Sasquatch, or if it’s just a single cause in a bigger picture is anyone’s guess. I have to consider all the possibilities and think about what that means for minute.

 

I wonder what the known range of the Nooksack herd is realistically. I mean we could be talking quite a distance maybe even in all points of a compass?

 

If the deer population numbers are stable, and plentiful as they are believed to be how does that account for one elk herd to be low?  Don’t elk  instinctively learn to stay at higher elevations than deer for safety purposes don’t them?

 

What area do you hunt BT Walker? Could this possibly within the scope of your range?