Guest RedRatSnake Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 Hi Ya i didn't think it was anything special, just want to put it up there so we could have a low budget bad suit to look at Feeling Buzzed On A Friday Night Tim :blowkiss:
Guest trinity Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 This is incredible Bill. Thanks for taking the time, and sharing your knowledge and trade secrets with us. By the way, how are you on elk lays ? T
Bill Posted January 5, 2008 Author Posted January 5, 2008 Melissa: Just a few "afterthoughts" from your question about horse hides. I've never seen real shaggy horses in person, just a few photos of rare breeds like the Skyros pony, or maybe Shetland Ponies with heavy winter coats, which may have a pelt that could make a suit. I just can't comprehend finding enough to make a suit, and especially enough of the same color. Another thought is that for the Giant King Kong robot Carlo Rambaldi did for the 1976 Kong movie, he reportedly used horsehair (from manes and tails) to cover that big robotic thing, so maybe the idea of using horse hides came from that instance. just a thought. bipedalist: There's a few folds or lines around the beltline I wonder about. No conclusions yet though. Trinity: I'll bite. What are "elk lays" Bill
Guest trinity Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 Not important Bill. Just thought we could make this the 1st thread that was moved twice.... LOL One controversey at a time. Again, thanks. T
bipedalist Posted January 5, 2008 BFF Patron Posted January 5, 2008 RRS, the lack of hands and feet could be addressed by using a nice brown pair of cotton work gloves, depending on age of child small , med large, still working on the feet but something like an old pair of slippers dyed brown with shoe polish or something along those lines. Use your creativity there. :blowkiss:
Guest Dfoot Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 Hi Bill[/b] - I haven't posted for a long time here, but I thought I'd drop by and share some stuff with you in case it should help your investigation. I see the forum has changed but I'll try to figure it out and see if I might post animations this time. If this plays this should be me walking in a tee-shirt and pants glued to some foam. I just wanted to see if I could mimic the lines of the leg and perhaps the buttocks, scapula and back of the neck areas. I didn't make any arms. All I did was shove some gloves on. I'm sure you know we can make the arms as long as we want. I just wanted to see those "muscle masses moving". Breasts and feet made by molding plaster and a little latex and caulk (I tested both to see if caulking would work too. Just in case. It did.) The type of kneecap displayed on Patty is exactly the same one Janos Prohaska used in the 60's. That "patchwork" looking thing on the arm is on most of the suits from Janos back then. The upside down shoulder pad is also a dead give-a-way. Not to mention the obvious opening for the head. Just some of the things we can see that match the description Heironimus gave. Hands and feet already attached (matching the Janos bear suit that I worked with). Top pulls over the pants. The usual stuff from the 60's monsters they worked with. Janos at war in a bear suit. I just wanted to show the BFF how those feet could bend. He would use the same basic foot and add whatever type of toes or claws he needed in any number or style. Pretty easy mold. Not nearly as detailed as later feet would be. Here's an animation of the head they used. Wah Chang sculpted it and it was worn once in 1966. The eyes were the problem so it couldn't be shown in close up (which also matches what Bob H. had to say about it). Basically, if you could build a Gorn you could build Patty without a problem. Take old bear and gorilla parts. Make your breasts and feet. Add the Star Trek head. As part of the hair was glued on (as described by Janos) the hands tended to brush some of it off as the person walked. This created that "pair of shorts" look around the pad lines that I'm sure you'll be able to see after viewing clearer images. And if you've worn a bunch of these feet (as I have) then you'll know that the ball of the foot creates what Meldrum has termed the special "mid-tarsal joint" of the Sas. Unfortunately, no one has ever seen such feet. We have seen them made of rubber with human feet inside though. Many, many times. They make these kinds of prints. All a guy with $700 bucks or more to spend would have to do is drop by this place, or contact his buddies from Corriganville (the place Jerry Merritt and Patterson tried to imitate) or call Don Post. Just as John Vulich said, it's a simple matter of cannabilizing suit parts. It always leads back to Janos/Wah/ and Chambers. And yep... this is the guy who was helping Roger make his attempt at a movie who wound up wearing the suit in the hoax footage. Same walla walk and all that. I have talked to some of the people behind this thing and all I can say is that for the Olson/Patterson 1971 interview they couldn't have picked anyone better than Janos as their expert. And no one was as trustworthy as Chambers (as the CIA will now tell you). I'm extremely confidant in what I'm telling you here. These are the guys. So where did it go? If Roger bought it outright it would have been hidden by DeAtley, but I seriously think that it was a rental as that fit Patterson's pattern of behavior. I've found a few of the 60's latex heads worn by Janos and the guys and I plan on meeting up with one of the guys who inherited some of these early suits in a few months from now. If I'm lucky maybe there will be something. Who knows? I didn't expect to find as much as I have so far. All this stuff I did over one weekend to test some theories out about the suit design. I've learned much more since then. But one thing you might also be interested in is the way the fabric when glued to the foam (as prescribed by Janos' method) I sometimes got little bubbles that would perfectly duplicate what has been called the "thigh injury" on Patty. It's not that hard to reproduce. The "skin" bubbles away from the foam. That's all that is. It happens to my back in the above pics but I don't know if you can see it or not. Anyway, don't mind the intense emotional reactions that my posts can sometimes generate. There is a strong affection for the suit as it's really the only footage that looks half-way decent. Yet if these same folks really saw Patty up close they might have a different reaction. Here the mind is able to create things like the "eyebrow move" - which I've already demonstrated using MK-style "enhancements" (sorry MK - but it's true). So there's a bunch of info for you. I just didn't want you to turn into the Krantz/Meldrum of the make-up profession and endure the same kind of ribbing they've gotten. I'm sure you'll think of stuff I've not even considered yet. Maybe you'll be the person to really duplicate Patty. That would be cool. Unfortunately, most creature fx guys wouldn't be caught dead making something this goofy looking. I'm sure no one involved ever imagined it would be studied like this though. It was just a joke suit quickly thrown together. Really. All the best to you. I'll let you know if I find out anything in the coming months. btw- This is what I pulled the tee-shirt over. It was enough to make Chris Walas nearly double over in laughter anyhow.
Bill Posted January 5, 2008 Author Posted January 5, 2008 Dfoot: Thank you for your comments, photos and video. Obviously a lot to evaluate, so I'll hold off on any specific comments for the moment. Can you elaborate on the "bubble" from gluing hair on the leg? What type of glue, for example? Just curious. Bill
Guest Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 first i wanna say thanks to bill and dfoot for their very interesting posts, my question is that a human being whether in a suit or not when they turn to look at you the head swivels on the neck pretty much independantly of the body, but apes need to turn their whole shoulder and neck region to get any kind of side to side view, and to me the patty creature doesn't seem like the shoulder and neck turning when she looks over at patterson looks staged to me it looks exactly how an apes head would turn imho
Bill Posted January 5, 2008 Author Posted January 5, 2008 Dfoot: Since you seem to have access to material from Janos' career, would you have any stills of the following jobs Janos did, where we might see the fur clealy enough to know what kind, length, and density it was? "The Andy Williams Show" (1962) TV series .... Cookie Bear (unknown episodes, 1969-1971) "Star Trek" .... Anthropoid Ape / ... (4 episodes, 1966-1969) ... aka Star Trek: TOS (USA: promotional abbreviation) ... aka Star Trek: The Original Series (USA: informal title) - The Savage Curtain (1969) TV episode (uncredited) .... Yarnek - A Private Little War (1968) TV episode .... The Gumato - Mugato - The Devil in the Dark (1967) TV episode (uncredited) .... Horta - The Cage (1966) TV episode (uncredited) .... Anthropoid Ape/Humanoid Bird "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" .... Gorilla (1 episode, 1967) - Fatal Cargo (1967) TV episode .... Gorilla "Gilligan's Island" .... Ape (3 episodes, 1965-1967) - Our Vines Have Tender Apes (1967) TV episode .... Ape - Forward March (1966) TV episode .... Ape - Diamonds Are an Ape's Best Friend (1965) TV episode .... Ape "Lost in Space" .... Giant Bird Monster / ... (2 episodes, 1965-1966) - The Forbidden World (1966) TV episode (uncredited) .... Giant Bird Monster - The Oasis (1965) TV episode (uncredited) .... Giant Debbie the Bloop "The Munsters" .... Olga the dancing bear (1 episode, 1965) - Herman's Child Psychology (1965) TV episode (uncredited) .... Olga the dancing bear "Perry Mason" .... Gorilla (1 episode, 1965) - The Case of the Grinning Gorilla (1965) TV episode .... Gorilla "The Outer Limits" .... Darwin the Monkey / ... (2 episodes, 1963-1965) - The Probe (1965) TV episode .... The Mikie (Alien Microbe) - The Sixth Finger (1963) TV episode (uncredited) .... Darwin the Monkey "Mickey" (1 episode, 1964) - Mickey Crashes the Movies (1964) TV episode Bikini Beach (1964) .... Clyde, the Ape Thanks, Bill peteyweestro: Thanks for the comment. I haven't done biomechanical studied yet. For the moment, I'm focusing on suit fabrication and feasibility of hoaxing. Bill
Guest Lyndon Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) Bill, Great post. You answered my question perfectly regarding the long hair seen in almost every sasquatch fake/suit. Bottom line seems to be that it's by far the easiest option which will hide a multitude of sins. Dfoot, Give it a rest with your 'facts'. They didn't wash before and they won't wash now. Janos Prohaska was on record stating the P/G footage looked convincing and that it was something he himself couldn't have done and wouldn't know how to. Bob Heironimus doesn't have limb proportions that match Patty. The mask you claim that was used on 'Patty' simply doesn't fit. You are well known for your morphs and your stretched imagery. Most importantly, you insisted you would be able to make a suit like Patty and would show us. What was that, a year and a half now? Where is it? You left the forum when you figured out you just couldn't do it. You are nothing but a huckster and a conman yourself. Good day. Now back to Bill's analysis of the P/G footage........................... Edited January 5, 2008 by Lyndon
Guest longtabber PE Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 Very impressive information Bill Welcome aboard
Guest Rod Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 fascinating stuff Bill mate.....keep it coming...............dfoot, good stuff in all the effort you are putting in.....but its the anatomical proportions, where the elbows bend etc that your forgetting.....your suit, fits in proportion to you mate....now do one, fitting the proportions of Patty....and good luck finding someone to fit it...........rod
Guest Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) Melissa:I once bought a fur bedspread at a garage sale and I was told it was "icelandic horsehair" and I believed it was for many years. But may have been "icelandic sheepskin" instead. Never found out for sure which. I did use parts of it for the forearms of the big silverback gorilla seen in my "visual resume" attached to my introduction post. As far as suits go, any horse or sheep pelt would generally fall into the same category as bearskins, a real fur hide, and all the tailoring rules would still apply As for analysing the PG film, I haven't seen the best quality enhanced version yet, so I can't comment difinitively on how the hair interacts with the sunlight. Thank you for your responses. If you don't mind, I do have some follow up. I completely respect the fact you would want to withhold comment until you see "the best quality enhanced version". Ok, then lets talk in general terms, and not specifically about "Patty". My question is, How well do synthetic furs interact with sunlight? And, just out of curiosity - how long have you been looking into this aspect of the Patterson film? Judging by your "notes", I am assuming you didn't wake up last week one morning and decide "this is the day". LOL. I have always been of the opinion, Mr. Patterson (if he made the Patty suit) truly missed his calling in life, and could have made a fortune in Hollywood. Do you think the difficulties in costume making for things like this is one reason CGI has become so popular? Also, you know many of the people in Hollywood who could really put this "suit theory" to the test - including yourself. Do you know of any that tried and failed? (no names are necessary). Its my opinion if someone could have by now - they would have. Edited January 5, 2008 by Melissa
Guest Posted January 5, 2008 Posted January 5, 2008 Dfoot,Give it a rest with your 'facts'. They didn't wash before and they won't wash now. You are nothing but a huckster and a conman yourself. Is this an example of the "intense emotional reaction" Dfoot predicted? Pretty strong accusation. Maybe I'm out of the loop, Dfoot hasn't posted on this forum since I registered a membership. Someone care to enlighten me as to why this members personal opinion is considered that of a "huckster" or "conman"?
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