Can Bigfoot Speak?

[bipedalist]

Yeah it could happen, but it'd be a rarity. I'd still take those winning megamillions tickets and swap 'em for the personal evidence I've come across.

[Guest Cervelo]

^^^

Thats all I'm saying Bi personal proof and scientific proof are two diffrent things.

[bipedalist]

Yes, but evidence IS evidence, and "strong" evidence is a construct determined by the person doing the beholding (usually an obstructionist or insurrectionist), lol.

Edited July 27, 2012 by bipedalist

[Cotter]

@Cerv - I 100% agree with you that some 'researchers' do have an overactive imagination. I've seen it first hand - in person.

However, with the sierra sounds, I would say for a prolonged human hoax, to maintain a cadence that is allegedly identified (proven? I'm not that versed on Nelson's claims or scientific methods to arrive at them) for that length of time would require months, if not years of rehearsal.

Now, I think we can rule out digital manipulation (i.e. computer software) if it was some sort of recording, so that leaves us with either a) an unidentifed animal making the sounds b.) an identified animal making an unidentified sound c) a well rehearsed human or d) a recording that was painstakingly manipulated through analog editing.

Additionally, I don't think a person needs to be a PhD in a particular subject to become successful at said subject, if the methodology is there and it is sound, it is sound regardless of the piece of paper the person has hanging on the wall.

By chance do you have any links or the like to other linguists' study results on the sounds?

If BF is real, and it is a relict homonid, I think it VERY plausible they have a method of communication, and capabilities of speech.

How much they choose to use said capabilities.........

Edited July 27, 2012 by Cotter

[Guest]

I see it as some people holding up what they consider strong evidence of bigfoot, while I'm pointing out the shortcomings in said evidence. Hopefully we agree that the evidence presented so far isn't of a sufficient quality to enable bigfoot to make it as a zoological classification.

And no, I can't post any sounds that I believe are of a real BF.

RayG

The voice of reason on this issue. Thank you RayG.

I know of one study being conducted by a scientist who has been observing Elephants in the wild for a NUMBER of years. She spends hours and hours watching their social interactions and recording their various vocal responses and "body language" during the time of (for lack of a better word) communications. Even she says she will still be doing this for a long time. It's not just about the vocalizations - its about the body language and the actions of the others to those sounds and the body language of the elephant doing it.

Body language is a very important part of communication even with humans. In person I can call a friend a loser - and they know I am kidding. They can see me smile, they can hear me laugh. On the internet calling my friend a loser could get me banned - because people can not see that I am laughing, you can't see the look on my face to know I am kidding. If I posted a smiley face - do you really know I am kidding?

So, how Scott Nelson (and I mean no disrespect) can say he is using recording to understand this "language of bigfoot" is beyond me. Especially considering these recordings are probably the most suspect recordings available.

[georgerm]

Two samples the Sierra Sounds can be heard.

http://www.bfro.net/avevid/sierrasounds/911.asp#whoops

Read about the history of the Sierra Sounds

....................................“I hiked into this camp with pre-knowledge that the hunters claimed strange things had happened there, beginning the previous season. I backpacked with a state-of-the-art Sony portable tape-recorder, some plaster of Paris, and my wits, thoroughly convinced someone was pulling someone’s leg, that it might be mine, and that I would expose the hunters’ ‘mystery.’

“The first time ‘in’ nothing happened, but I saw some inordinately large, but old, toe-ball-and-heel foot impressions at a sandy location. They seemed static, but I didn’t dismiss them. I rather figured this was evidence that the finger pointed back at one or more of the hunters and some jest.

“The second time in, things were different. As dusk became dark night, something approached camp from a ridge above, rapping on wood or rocks as it came, and when it arrived, two voices that I could discern, it vocalized, and the sounds carried through the trees as I have never heard human voices carry every before or since. And it whistled, a clear, beautiful whistle like a bird might make, between its kind, and at one point back and forth with us.

“This encounter went on for nearly an hour and a half, and another followed on the second night, and there were other encounters I can attest to later that season. I was able to get reasonably good tape recordings of the sounds and interaction, and we cast several of the foot impressions, both in pine mat and snow. I looked high and low for evidence of the joke, including searching the others’ belongings while they were away hunting. I wasn’t a novice investigator of facts, but I came home stumped, basically with nothing to write about until the story unraveled by itself or I helped in with further research and investigation.

“I pursued the matter to an end in 1978, when Dr. R. Lynn Kirlin, then at the University of Wyoming, and a Norwegian graduate student of electrical enginineering, Lasse Hertel, presented their findings of the sound recordings at a University of British Columbia symposium entitled ‘Anthropology of the Unknown.’.................................

..............................................

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/berry-obit/

Read the whole report:

[Guest BFSleuth]

Perhaps I'm missing some information, but it seems as though some people are indicating that Kirlin & Hetel or that Nelson are going to establish the fact of a language or translate the language. From the web site for the Sierra Sounds:

"Years ago, through a year-long study at the University of Wyoming, it was established that the vocalizations which we recorded were not manufactured by an alternative source, i.e., speakers, amplifiers, man. More recently, it was established, through a Crypto-Linguistic study, that the sounds we recorded have a complex language structure."

In the first sentence quote, it seems that the findings of Kirlin & Hetel were confined to simply establishing that the Sierra Sounds tapes were not manufactured by analog manipulation, speakers, etc. They didn't try to establish that it is a language. Regarding the second sentence that must be referring to Nelson's efforts, which was simply saying that the recordings indicate that there is a complex language structure.

I'm not sure where people are finding any indication that Mr. Nelson will be translating the recording or doing anything further than simply noting the language like structure from the recordings. Perhaps I've missed it, and would appreciate any links to where these researchers have made claims greater than stated on the Sierra Sounds web site.

[southernyahoo]

Yep Sleuth, Nelsons work seems to have morphed into the straw man that he is now translating the language. That is not his claim, only that there is strong indication of a language based on phonetic elements phonemes or words repeated by two or more speakers etc. He has assembled a phonetic alphabet for the phonemes but claims no understanding of what is being said. He says there is tonal inflections that correspond to human conversation when asking questions or making imperative statements. This is just expressing his insight on the sounds. I'm sure it rubs people the wrong way if BF is just an animal to them, but if BF does speak, it is obviously much more.

[bipedalist]

An analogy here. The Cherokee (Tsalagi in their language) were the first of the "five Civilized tribes" in the U.S. to put forth a syllabary.

What is a syllabary you say?

Well, it is a visual or graphic analog of a phonetic or spoken language?

How you say?

Well the language (southern Iroquoian language)was spoken for hundreds of years (observed in situ in southeast by the Spanish in the mid-1500's) before it ever crossed anyones mind that maybe it could be captured in a graphic form.

What a mystery you say?

How can that be?

A "civilized tribe" without a written language? Impossible. Anyone with a language can certainly "write it down"? What good would it do to write it down since the ability to read is not possible or needed?

Not so fast, what need is there--- for a people that communicate facilely and accomplish all of their goals over time without the use of a graphic icon--- to represent their thoughts, actions and goals in a permanent way?

Well fiddlesticks it was introduced/completed 1819-1821 and officially adopted in 1825. A permanently adopted Cherokee syllabary, so somebody eventually found a need and met it. By 1830 it was said 90 percent of Cherokee were literate.

So, nobody is claiming that Sasquatch publish their own newspaper like the Cherokee Phoenix (1828); nor that they have the skills to do so if they so desired.

What is being discussed is that the nascent form of the rudimentary aspects of language seem to be recognizable. Yes, it is an early stage of investigation. Doesn't someone have to start somewhere if they are to make sense out of that documented by increasing numbers of human beings?

Maybe Scott Nelson is on to something big. Maybe he is just beginning to connect the dots. Maybe he could use the help of those who record what they portend to be samples of Sasquatch language?

Then again, maybe the Sasquatch Gazette is not on the horizon for there is no need and Sasquatch are only dreamers.

[Guest RayG]

No one was arguing that Nelson is not good at what he does, I think.

It's certainly not the argument that I'm presenting. He was likely a very good crypto-linguist (one who intercepts/analyzes/deciphers a specific language that they are fluent in), but I've not seen any evidence that he's a very good linguist (one who studies the history and structure of language). I voiced my concerns over two years ago, and I see Mr. Nelson still lacks any support from actual linguists. He travels around giving presentations at bigfoot meetings, but still hasn't submitted his findings to science journals. It's a pattern that seems to get repeated often in bigfootdom.

One bigfoot website even refers to him as a "linguistics expert", which is misleading at best and downright deceitful at worst. Why? Because they're not using the correct meaning for 'linguist'.

It's like comparing a Captain in the Artillery, to the guy in the cockpit who comes on the speaker and says, "This is your Captain speaking... we'll be experiencing a little turbulence, please fasten your seatbelts."

People may refer to both as 'Captain', but the former likely can't fly a jumbo-jet, and the latter likely wouldn't have a clue about leading an artillery team. In bigfootdom we've got the term 'linguist' being bandied about as though it's significant. Well yes, it would be if Nelson were an actual linguist (one who studies the history and structure of language) instead of a 'crypto-linguist' (one who intercepts/analyzes/deciphers a specific language that they are fluent in), which is basically a military translator with a very high security clearance. I see nothing in his resume that would get him accepted as an actual linguist by other actual linguists. But then maybe that's just me. Or is it?

So, are we going to use science here or not?

Apparently not.

Where are the actual linguists that support Nelson? What do they have to say? Surely the fellow who developed the 'Sasquatch Phonetic Alphabet' (SPA) has presented this SPA to actual linguists for their input, right? So where are the results? Surely he's gotten his SPA published in a reputable journal by now, right? Where is it?

When people say that Kirlin or Nelson are engaging in science... where are the published results outside of bigfootdom?

When I asked in what scientific journals did his Estimates of Pitch and Vocal Tract length from Recorded Vocalizations of Purported Bigfoot get published, I see some side-stepping, but no links. I mean, c'mon, he published that in a bigfoot book more than 20 years ago. Surely it doesn't take THAT long to get published in a science journal? Oh wait, maybe it does, if it doesn't stand up to scientific rigor.

And when someone says I'm only using some obscure mention of hand-cupping in a Grover Krantz book to 'debunk' the results, I can only wonder how they've missed the total lack of scientific investigation by those more qualified. Like actual linguists.

A crypto linguist declaring recorded audio is a language..

And he didn't just declare them sounds, he even created the Sasquatch Phonetic Alphabet. <--- (that was for you Cotter, BFSleuth, and southernyahoo)

Are folks contending that hoaxers are now creating a new "BF" language to add to the phenomenon?

Not my contention, though Krantz seemed to think otherwise.

"None of them claimed to have seen the creatures, but they did show me photographs of numerous tracks in the snow at the camp. These were some of the most obviously faked tracks that I have ever seen." -- Dr. Grover Krantz, Big Footprints, page 134.

My bolding.

My contention isn't that Kirlin and Nelson are hoaxers, it's that they talk the talk, but don't walk the walk (so to speak). Neither have taken their findings beyond bigfoot circles. Neither have had their conclusions inspected and examined by those who have the tools and qualifications to do so.

Nelson has convinced some bigfooters that because he was fluent in a couple of languages, that makes him an expert in unknown languages. I remain unconvinced and unimpressed.

And no, you've not heard me argue against purported bigfoot having a supposed language, or means of communications. You've heard me argue that an individual trained as a crypto-linguist doesn't have the qualifications to produce a Sasquatch Phonetic Alphabet, or make any kind of definitive statements on the 'language' in the recordings.

You've also heard me argue about the lack of support for their findings by the scientific community, and actual linguists.

So here we are 30+ years after the Sierra Sounds were recorded and the silence is deafening whilst one waits for something to be published outside Footerville.

RayG

[Guest]

It's a possibility. Many people think so because of some audio recordings of alleged Sasquatch speech from the Sierra-Nevada mountains in California during the 1970s. However, it was later discovered that the vocalizations could have easily have been a human speaking jibberish with cupped hands placed in front of his mouth.

Or at least it said so in Dr. Krantz's book of 1992.

[georgerm]

Nelson has convinced some bigfooters that because he was fluent in a couple of languages, that makes him an expert in unknown languages. I remain unconvinced and unimpressed.

And no, you've not heard me argue against purported bigfoot having a supposed language, or means of communications. You've heard me argue that an individual trained as a crypto-linguist doesn't have the qualifications to produce a Sasquatch Phonetic Alphabet, or make any kind of definitive statements on the 'language' in the recordings.

You've also heard me argue about the lack of support for their findings by the scientific community, and actual linguists.

So here we are 30+ years after the Sierra Sounds were recorded and the silence is deafening whilst one waits for something to be published outside Footerville.

RayG

After looking at Nelson experience and background it obvious that he could tell the difference between fake calls by some hunter in the bush and a real primate enunciating syllables of a primitive language. He has several videos of his presentations, and he descirbes typical BF activity at the camp.

Are there recent university studies that prove the Sierra Tapes are humans imitating BF calls?

R. Scott Nelson

Curriculum Vitae

Eleven years on the Faculty of Philosophy and Languages at Wentworth College,

Lexington, Missouri; teaching Russian, Persian and Spanish as well several Philosophy and Religion courses.

Retired U.S. Navy Cryptologic Technician Interpreter (Crypto-Linguist), worked for Naval Intelligence at the following duty stations: Naval Security Group Activity (NSGA), Rota, Spain; Naval Security Group Detachment Galeta Island, Panama; NSGA Homestead, Florida; NSGA Edzell, Scotland and aboard the following afloat units: USS Coronado, USS Belknap, USS Deyo, USS Bigelow, USS Sphynx; serving in the Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea and Persian Gulf.

Two time graduate of the Defense Language Institute, Foreign Language Center, Monterey, California (Russian and Spanish).

Two time graduate of the U.S. Navy Cryptologic Voice Transcription School at Naval Security Group Detachment (NSGD), San Angelo, Texas (Russian and Spanish).

Graduate of U.S. Navy Communications Intelligence Analysis and Reporting School at NSGD, San Angelo, Texas.

Acquired the Persian Language while assigned to afloat platforms in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. These platforms had Persian as their primary target language.

Logged thousands of hours of collection and transcription of voice communications as a Cryptologic Interpreter for the U.S. Navy.

[Guest RayG]

Not so obvious to those that understand what it is crypto-linguists do.

• Is there some specific part of his resume you find impressive?
  
• What do you see in his CV that indicates he has the ability to decipher an unknown language?
  
• Have you ever worked with military linguists or as a military linguist?
  
• If you accept his work, what are you basing it on?
  
• What qualifications or experience do you have to either praise or condemn his resume or his conclusions regarding the Sierra Sounds?
  
• Have you spoken to any actual linguists about his work?
  
• In what scientific journals did Kirlin's Estimates of Pitch and Vocal Tract length from Recorded Vocalizations of Purported Bigfoot get published?
  
• Where are the actual linguists that support Nelson? What do they have to say?
  
• Where are the published results outside of bigfootdom?
  

RayG

[Guest Captain Caveman]

I see nothing in his resume that would get him accepted as an actual linguist by other actual linguists. But then maybe that's just me. Or is it?

Nope. It certainly isn't.

I agree that there is no credible evidence that there is such a thing as 'Sasquatch language' and I also share your skepticism about things that are presented only to bigfooters.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Captain Caveman

[georgerm]

Ray, you are a powerful debater. Let's get off Nelson and look at other examples of BF recordings that may sound like language. We don't need to hear the screams and knocks but do you know where other purported BF language has been recorded? Let's dredge up some recordings or findings by other experts. We have beaten the Nelson horse to death.....................do you know of any good BF recordings?