Why Is Bigfoot So... Big?

[Guest BlurryMonster]

There is no contradiction if the ancestor of bf had longer limbs to begin with. Think about that.

Think about what? Limbs have to be long before they get shortened in the first place. Things change over time, that's what evolution is. If something has to evolve a larger body to regulate heat more efficently, it typically evolves shorter limbs to hold heat closer to the core. You see that happen in lots of animals that live in cold environments, including pretty much all of the Pleistocene megafauna. I gave Neaderthals as an example because I'm fairly familiar with them, and they happen to fit the question well. The also evolved from things that had longer limbs (H. erectus and H. heidelbergensis).

How would that work for the Great Apes? They live in the tropics.

I was talking about limbs shortening in cold temperatures for thermoregulation. That principle doesn't apply to the great apes since none live in cold climates.

Edited May 11, 2012 by BlurryMonster

[Guest]

An organism's dimensions are the product of many factors, and as with any relationship having more than only a couple of variables one can not attribute the definitive aspects with much certainty. The idea of an apex predator needing to be large is good but then certainly a wolverine is an apex predator and it's not, neither is a pirannah, so there are lots of exceptions. Thermo-regulation likewise is a good explanation but there are so many exceptions to that rule that it's not one on which to do much more than speculation. One determinant factor as to an organisms size that does hold up pretty well as a guide is the size of the habitat they have...big habitats usually equates to lots of food (if the organism can capitalize on it) and so size will grow but even here there are plenty of exceptions. If BF exists it would see that it would have been as a response to food availabiltiy in the vast habitat of Eurasia where grasslands and forests allowed for a terrific profusion of species and sheer numbers of animals long before modern humans were there to hunt them.

[Guest]

I believe their size/speed/strength is necessary for their survival in North America's Wilderness

I agree. What is the likelihood of a human or small clan of humans suviving in the wilderness of the Pacific NW, for example, without sophisticated tools (e.g., stone tools), no clothing, no shelter, and no fire? I'm guessing zilch (beyond a few days).

[indiefoot]

How much have we grown in the last 50,000 years?

[salubrious]

I agree. What is the likelihood of a human or small clan of humans suviving in the wilderness of the Pacific NW, for example, without sophisticated tools (e.g., stone tools), no clothing, no shelter, and no fire? I'm guessing zilch (beyond a few days).

If they possess survival skills, years. The PNW is a lush environment, in a few minutes you could make a fire if you know how to make a bow drill (which can be done without a knife). Shelter is easy if you know how to construct a debris hut (interestingly, the Marble Mountain BF video depicts something that looks very much like a primitive debris hut). A debris hut can keep you warm and dry in some pretty fierce rain or snow, without so much as a sleeping bag. A good one takes 3 - 8 hours to make depending on available debris.

Clothing is made from a variety of sources but the best is brain-tanned leather. The stuff is soft and resiliant, so much so that you can wash it in a clothes washer without phasing it.

If you know the native plants there is food everywhere!

Edited May 14, 2012 by salubrious

[Guest johnbamburg]

If they possess survival skills, years. The PNW is a lush environment, in a few minutes you could make a fire if you know how to make a bow drill (which can be done without a knife). Shelter is easy if you know how to construct a debris hut (interestingly, the Marble Mountain BF video depicts something that looks very much like a primitive debris hut). A debris hut can keep you warm and dry in some pretty fierce rain or snow, without so much as a sleeping bag. A good one takes 3 - 8 hours to make depending on available debris.

Clothing is made from a variety of sources but the best is brain-tanned leather. The stuff is soft and resiliant, so much so that you can wash it in a clothes washer without phasing it.

If you know the native plants there is food everywhere!

Spoken by one who has watched this being done on TV. But obviously never done it themselves. Living and surviving in the PNW or any wilderness area is extremely hard work. It takes a tremnedous amount of knowledge and skill.

You make it sound as if "there's nothing to it". I would suggest you give it a try. Just for a week. That experience will put the reality of what you are saying into perspective.

[Guest BFSleuth]

Salubrious is speaking from personal experience and hands on training, and yes he is correct that with a little knowledge and experience survival in the PNW (or any area for that matter) can be done.

.... now back to regularly scheduled programming, this thread is about why bigfoot is so big...

[southernyahoo]

Well if you are not prone to alot of tool use then you better be both big and fast as a great ape. You've got to take down prey with your bare hands, A big brain would help predict the prey's behavior and help with an ambush strategy. The smarter and more physically capable you are the more protein you can aquire to fuel the brain and muscle. When looking at habitat for Sas, one should probably consider how many edible animals are around vs. what plants can be eaten and digested. I wonder if they are good at noodleing.( catching catfish with your hands.)

[Guest shoot1]

Evolution & competition vs. Humans and other predators. Their physical size and behavior allows them to dominate other animals and thrive in extreme / rugged territory that coincidentally happens to discourage us from competing with them. I'm guessing the other competitors to homo sapiens could not compete and had nowhere to retreat to. Sasquatch retreated to the most extreme, rugged wilderness where we could not (cannot) or simply won't live and we only encounter them now when we explore, encroach upon (and develop) their territories or former/ancestral territories.

Edited May 14, 2012 by shoot1

[salubrious]

Spoken by one who has watched this being done on TV. But obviously never done it themselves. Living and surviving in the PNW or any wilderness area is extremely hard work. It takes a tremnedous amount of knowledge and skill.

You make it sound as if "there's nothing to it". I would suggest you give it a try. Just for a week. That experience will put the reality of what you are saying into perspective.

Never seen that stuff on TV, but from what I have heard you are taking your life in your hands if you do what you see on TV. I've been taking classes (usually week-long) for years at The Tracker School (http://www.trackerschool.com), taught by Tom Brown Jr. They are pretty intense! I can usualy bust a bowdrill coal in about 15 seconds. I would not say that taking 8 hours to build a proper shelter is a walk in the park.... the first 2-3 days of a survival situation takes a good 8-10 hours of work per day. After about the 3rd or 4th day though it only takes a couple of hours to keep things going. It takes training and practice (dirt time), which is done by going camping but just not bringing all that much along. Only thing is, if you are in a park you really have to get well away from anywhere where anyone hangs out. Rangers don't take kindly to that stuff...

With regards to the size of the creature, I've seen a lot of people talk about how it might use up a lot of resources, but seriously in a place like the PNW there is a lot of food growing 3 seasons out of the year, like most places in the US that get rain. I would expect BF to know the plants; if so food simply isn't a problem. Many humans, by contrast, starve to death while surrounded by edible plants in the wild. Otherwise, my theory is that BF is large in response to the megafauna, but due to its MO of staying out of sight and its non-tribal behavior, there really hasn't been any pressure for it to downsize. If you think about a predator like this, its 'shyness' would be nearly automatic as not only does it not want *us* to see it, but any of its other food sources as well. I'm not saying the BF eats humans, but I would not be surprised either. I expect them to be highly opportunistic. They are certainly big enough they can eat anything that moves...

[Guest]

If they possess survival skills, years. The PNW is a lush environment, in a few minutes you could make a fire if you know how to make a bow drill (which can be done without a knife). Shelter is easy if you know how to construct a debris hut (interestingly, the Marble Mountain BF video depicts something that looks very much like a primitive debris hut). A debris hut can keep you warm and dry in some pretty fierce rain or snow, without so much as a sleeping bag. A good one takes 3 - 8 hours to make depending on available debris.

Clothing is made from a variety of sources but the best is brain-tanned leather. The stuff is soft and resiliant, so much so that you can wash it in a clothes washer without phasing it.

If you know the native plants there is food everywhere!

sal,

You attempt to refute my point by postulating the availability of sophisticated tools (which bigfoots don't have), the abilty to make clothing (which bigfoots don't have), the ability to construct shelter (which bigfoots, apart from a diminuitive debris hut on the slopes of Marble Mt., don't do), and the ability to make fire (which bugfoots don't have). It is obvious that humans can survive in the PNW -- we have tools, clothing, shelter, and fire. Bigfoots don't have these things, with which I believe humans could not survive here for a sustainable length of time. Bigfoots make up for what we would perceive as critical shortcomings by being big and hairy.

[Guest]

#1 I simply cant believe that anyone is still referring to the Marble Mtn hut as being even remotely connected to Bigfoot....

It is obvious from watching the video that its a human made campsite area- there's a fire pit only 15 or so feet away, and lots of evidence of people having been there on a regular basis. It's simply something constructed that was either built for practice, or possibly utlized as a shelter by some of the people staying at that site.

#2 In regards to the title, and the OP's question, I'd start with a question of my own.

Why are Kodiak (and other coastal ) Brown Bears larger than their montane dwelling "Grizzly" brothers ?

Difference in food supply, as the coastal and island locked Kodiak's have access to protein rich Salmon for a food source, and selective breeding by the larger more dominate males.

It's interesting indeed, as one of the theories I have involving Bigfoot, is that the East Coast version happens to be somewhat smaller and of slighter build than their Western (especially PNW) counterparts.

There are far more reports in the East of creatures ranging in the 6' to 7' range, than there are of the 8' to 10' ones you read about out West.

Could be the same exact reason- difference in food supply, not dealing with harsh Winters, and then selective breeding which weeds out the small and the weak.

Just my two cents....

Art

[Guest]

Art,

As the OP points out, thermoregulation is likely a big benefit to being big in the PNW. Being hairy helps, too. However, these traits would seem to be a hinderance for a bigfoot living, for example, in Texas. I was going to ask if there is any evidence of southern bigfoots being smaller, less hairy, or behaving differently in the abundant heat (e.g., hanging out near waterholes, immersing themselves in water, hanging out in deep shaded forests, siestaing up during the day).

Pt

[salubrious]

sal,

You attempt to refute my point by postulating the availability of sophisticated tools (which bigfoots don't have), the abilty to make clothing (which bigfoots don't have), the ability to construct shelter (which bigfoots, apart from a diminuitive debris hut on the slopes of Marble Mt., don't do), and the ability to make fire (which bugfoots don't have). It is obvious that humans can survive in the PNW -- we have tools, clothing, shelter, and fire. Bigfoots don't have these things, with which I believe humans could not survive here for a sustainable length of time. Bigfoots make up for what we would perceive as critical shortcomings by being big and hairy.

For that I refer you to your comment which I initially responded to, which I have pasted below. You will note it does not mention anything about BF, instead refers to 'a human or small clan of humans'. I answered the question based on the assumptions that are also part of the same post:

I agree. What is the likelihood of a human or small clan of humans suviving in the wilderness of the Pacific NW, for example, without sophisticated tools (e.g., stone tools), no clothing, no shelter, and no fire? I'm guessing zilch (beyond a few days).

Now it might be that you meant that humans would not have these things *on an ongoing basis* in which case they are pretty dumb humans that aren't going to survive. But its a simple fact that both your ancestors and mine (in fact all ancestors of all humans) knew these skills as we exist as living proof. Denying humans survival skill is sort of like seperating a dog from its sense of smell; In both cases some training is needed to be useful. IOW I may have misinterpreted your initial question because I cannot seperate humans from the survival skills. Seems to me the humans that crossed the Siberian bridge came through that area and thus did possess them, more than 15,000 years ago (Clovis is now under debate as there is evidence of a pre-Clovis or proto-Clovis period).

I simply cant believe that anyone is still referring to the Marble Mtn hut as being even remotely connected to Bigfoot....

I used that example to point at what a debris hut looks like since its something that most people on this forum would know, no more. The example falls short as it it not actual shelter (in that regard similar in that regard to other 'structures' attributed to BF...) as it lacks insulation and water-proofing. A debris hut uses the same central lodge pole that is long enough for someone to lie underneath, then the sides have sticks leaned agaisnt the central pole as we saw in the Marble Mtn video. However a real debris hut would have a anywhere from 1-3 feet of debris piled on it for insulation. Of course BF does not need that....

[Guest]

I refer you to your comment which I initially responded to .... You will note it does not mention anything about BF, instead refers to 'a human or small clan of humans'. I answered the question based on the assumptions that are also part of the same post ....

This is a thread about bigfoot morphology. My point was made to reinforce OntarioSquatch's point, which I quoted, but you omitted. Perhaps I was too concise to be clear. My point is that if a relatively small and hairless great ape (a human) were subject to the same limitations that a huge and hairy great ape (a bigfoot) is -- no tools, no clothing, no shelter, and no fire -- the relatiively small and hairless great ape would not survive long: at least in the PNW. I doubt that any of the other, documented, extant great apes -- chimps, bonobos, gorillas, or orangs -- could survive long in the PNW. as they are not large enough to maintain body heat in the wet cool climate. I believe humans were only able to emigrate out of the African savannahs after mastering tool. clothing, shelter, and fire making. If bigfoots exist, they were able to exploit non-tropical or non-subtropical environs because of their size and hairiness.

Do you have one of Tom Brown's knives? If so, how do you like it?