Bigfoot Research – Still No Evidence, But Plenty Of Excuses To Explain Why There’S No Evidence

[Guest DWA]

^^^^To say that shows a misapprehension of the evidence. A smart lawyer would never fall for the "five pieces" dodge; he'd simply convice the jury that's not the way to look at it (and it isn't).

[Guest]

Once again, it likely DOESN'T have that distribution.

Then what is it's distribution and on what do you base your opinion?

Re: Cold. I don't necessarily agree with ronn1 that a cold-adapted bigfoot is such a big stretch, but it is a stretch and he raises good points that add to the unlikelihood of such creatures. Anything we could come up with to propose how bigfoots survive harsh northern/alpine winters would be speculation, and some of that speculation comes pre-challenged by things we already know.

For example, people suggest "caves" as a way for bigfoots to survive harsh winters. Well, if that was true then North American caves would have evidence of thousands of years of winter cave occupation by bigfoots, and these would be excellent places for remains to have been preserved, as they have for so many other animals both extinct and extant. Caves are not evenly distributed across landscapes, so we can't just assume that there are suitable caves within the home range our your friendly, local bigfoot. In the U.S. and I assume at least southern Canada, most caves big enough for a human to squeeze into have been at least partially explored and mapped. I'd be shocked if there are more than a handful of unexplored caves in the U.S. that are big enough to accommodate a bigfoot and its winter larder. Cavers really get jazzed about being the first folks to get in and map a cave.

So . . . we just need to be careful that speculating about what bigfoots might do can get problematic once you really try to tease apart the mechanisms.

[Guest Kerchak]

Then what is it's distribution and on what do you base your opinion?

I don't know what it IS, but I'm pretty sure what it ISN'T.

I'm pretty sure bigfoot isn't numerous and so widespread over almost the entire USA.

I don't think most reports are authentic. I think there is truth in bigfoot but it's likely a few chicken nuggets and not the entire KFC franchise.

I'm not one of these people who feel it must be "all or nothing". Do you have the opinion that bigfoot can't be everywhere, therefore it must be nowhere?

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kerchak

[WSA]

Re: Caves.

I would tend to agree the possibility of a large animal using caves for shelter, and not leaving signifcant remains behind is a bit of a stretch. As well, having done a bit of caving in the SE's TAG area, I can affirm that new caves are a much hunted commodity and the ones being found these days are only the smallest of openings, which must be enlarged to access the larger system. Of course, this climate is not one you would expect to require a cave dwelling to survive the cold. More like needing it to keep cool in the summer.

If I ever am able to converse with a BF, I'm going to ask him to brief me on his LNT ethic and techniques. This is perhaps the biggest part of the puzzle for me. Stacks of deer bones notwithstanding, this dude keeps a super clean camp. Or maybe we don't know what we should be looking for.

If this animal is confirmed, we'll probably find it likes the wide-open more than the confines of caves or rock shelters. Of all the (non flying) mammals, only a couple seek out cave homes, and hibernation accounts for much of that activity. WE have found utility in cave shelter in the past, but you can't overlook the evidence of us being in the minority.

[dmaker]

^^^^^ Most imaginary animals do keep a pretty clean camp. Sorry, if that sounds snarky. Only 3 more posts and I can get a premium membership and take out my snark in the tar pit. Can't wait

[Drew]

WE have found utility in cave shelter in the past, but you can't overlook the evidence of us being in the minority.

Can you explain the statement about us being in the minority? I'm not following this.

[WSA]

Drew....I appreciate the invitation, and it is very tempting, but do you have time to cross-examine 2,000+ witnesses? Your trial prep is going to require reading each and every one of their statements because they are going to be on the prosecution's witness list. Really, if you want to talk about burdens of proof, this is where the rubber hits the road in the courtroom. The trier of fact (12 citizens in my jurisdiction) is entitled to judge the credibility of the witness, taking into account motive, bias, demeanor and anything else found relevant. As I often say, I've had more people lie to my face than just about anyone you'd care to name. What I've learned is that people are just not that good at lying, despite the Hollywood caricatures. I've only seen a few who were really good at it in my 25 years in the courtroom, and they too were found out in the end. I've also sat on the other side of the rail too....as the foreperson in a capital murder case. You'd be amazed at the consensus a group of people from all walks of life can form about who is a liar, and who is not. Really, most people agree on the criteria, within very narrow limits. You don't have to think about it too hard, usually. Yeah, I'm aware of the studies regarding the fallibility of eyewitness testimony, but at the end of the day those people were telling the truth as they knew it to be, not perpetrating a deliberate fraud. And, as I always say, shadows of tree stumps don't throw rocks, make guttural noises and smell bad.

[norseman]

Not talking just *cold*..I'm talking ARSES AND ELBOWS IN THE SNOW. Show me..give me a link that shows Homo Erectus

lived in the snow...without the benefit of all the things REQUISITE for doing so...

FIRE..CLOTHING.... SHELTER....

Here you just answered my question..no clothing? Not gonna happen in snow.

Meet the Yaghan tribe...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people

Despite the extreme cold climate in which they lived, early Yahgan wore little to no clothing until their contact with Europeans.[5] They were able to survive the harsh climate because:

They kept warm by huddling around small fires when they could, including in their boats to stay warm. In fact, the name of "Tierra del Fuego" (land of fire) is a name given to the island cluster by passing European explorers who witnessed these fires burning.

They made use of rock formations to shelter themselves from the elements.

They covered themselves in animal grease.[citation needed]

Over time they had evolved significantly higher metabolisms than average humans, allowing them to generate more internal body heat.[6]

Their natural resting position was a deep squatting position, which reduced their surface area and so helped to conserve heat.[7]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Who else here brought up metabolism? We can back up speculation with what is known about other primates living in extreme conditions.

Edited January 10, 2013 by norseman

[Guest DWA]

"And, as I always say, shadows of tree stumps don't throw rocks, make guttural noises and smell bad."

...or run bipedally, pacing cars and gaining on deer. I mean, among other things.

Yep, that ol' "five pieces of evidence" thing is naive. What? Which one are you going to believe if you have made up your mind square one not to believe any of it?

More like 3,000 witnesses ...and yep, we are gonna bring in every one. Still wanna try this case?

Edited January 10, 2013 by DWA

[Guest]

I don't know what it IS, but I'm pretty sure what it ISN'T.

What tells you where bigfoot isn't? Are the hundreds of reports in the eastern U.S. for some reason less reliable than the hundreds from the western U.S.?

[Drew]

If you really want to put those 2000 'eyewitnesses' on the stand, and have them testify that they saw Bigfoot, under oath, and allow me to cross examine them, I would be all for it.

Please remember, that I am going to ask them, under oath, if they take any anti-depressants, anti- hallucination, or anti-anxiety medications, I am further going to ask them if they have been diagnosed with any sleep disorder, or have ever had any hallucination while driving, I am going to ask them if they were up late during any of those sightings, driving a truck, camping out in the woods, or on a 'Bigfoot' expedition. I think you will have a large percentage of your witness admit to one or more of the above. I did a poll here on BFF asking if anyone had ever experienced Hallucinations-while-driving, and the result was approx. 40% affirmative. Of course I would probably not even have to ask them if they ever made up stories, or told good ones around a campfire. That would be overkill.

This will all be wrapped up of course, by expert testimony from physicians who will describe the existence of detailed hallucination in people who are sleep-deprived, have sleep-disorders, take any of the above medications, or have recently stopped taking them.

You put Dr. Meldrum on the stand, and I'll put Dr. John Hawks on the stand, let's let the jury have consensus on those two gentelmen.

I would love to have you bring 2000 eyewitness to the trial under oath, and I would LOVE to cross examine them under oath.

Forget about the studies of eyewitness testimony, you are going to send these poor people out there to defend their story about seeing a creature 9'x6', 600 pounds living under our noses around trailer parks, 6 lane highways, rest areas, casino parking lots, and semi rural subdivisions across North America.

And, to boot, I'm gonna call 200 paranormal Bigfoot witnesses, and ask them the same questions you ask your witnesses.

Then in my close, I'm gonna say "The prosecution called 2000 alleged biological-bigfoot witnesses, and I called 200 paranormal-bigfoot witnesses, each has exactly the same amount of verifiable evidence as the other, why do you think this is?"

[Guest DWA]

This will all be wrapped up of course, by expert testimony from physicians who will describe the existence of detailed hallucination in people who are sleep-deprived, have sleep-disorders, take any of the above medications, or have recently stopped taking them.

Forget about the studies of eyewitness testimony, you are going to send these poor people out there to defend their story about seeing a creature 9'x6', 600 pounds living under our noses around trailer parks, 6 lane highways, rest areas, casino parking lots, and semi rural subdivisions across North America.

And, to boot, I'm gonna call 200 paranormal Bigfoot witnesses, and ask them the same questions you ask your witnesses.

Then in my close, I'm gonna say "The prosecution called 2000 alleged biological-bigfoot witnesses, and I called 200 paranormal-bigfoot witnesses, each has exactly the same amount of verifiable evidence as the other, why do you think this is?"

Keep in mind that these options of expert witnesses are available to everybody.

And if they are as foolproof as you seem to think they are, nobody would be in jail, because everybody would rather be loony on drugs than nailed on a cold sober crime.

Keep in mind also that it's gonna be pretty easy to sort the paranormal chaff from the biological wheat.

And just how many people saw this animal "living under our noses around trailer parks, 6 lane highways, rest areas, casino parking lots, and semi rural subdivisions across North America." What is this, the Traveling Wilburys? Charles Kuralt? They saw the animal where they saw it.

Methinks you are underestimating the difficulty of this one, and the trial would prove it.

Of course, this is all folly, because scientific questions are never resolved by lay people. I personally am in no hurry, and the evidence says what to think about this.

Edited January 10, 2013 by DWA

[Guest RedRatSnake]

You can't rewrite BF history just to fit in a new scenario, BF reports come from all over the US, they just can't be cherry picked to fit ones belief or disbelief, it is kinda all or nothing.

[norseman]

Then what is it's distribution and on what do you base your opinion?

Re: Cold. I don't necessarily agree with ronn1 that a cold-adapted bigfoot is such a big stretch, but it is a stretch and he raises good points that add to the unlikelihood of such creatures. Anything we could come up with to propose how bigfoots survive harsh northern/alpine winters would be speculation, and some of that speculation comes pre-challenged by things we already know.

For example, people suggest "caves" as a way for bigfoots to survive harsh winters. Well, if that was true then North American caves would have evidence of thousands of years of winter cave occupation by bigfoots, and these would be excellent places for remains to have been preserved, as they have for so many other animals both extinct and extant. Caves are not evenly distributed across landscapes, so we can't just assume that there are suitable caves within the home range our your friendly, local bigfoot. In the U.S. and I assume at least southern Canada, most caves big enough for a human to squeeze into have been at least partially explored and mapped. I'd be shocked if there are more than a handful of unexplored caves in the U.S. that are big enough to accommodate a bigfoot and its winter larder. Cavers really get jazzed about being the first folks to get in and map a cave.

So . . . we just need to be careful that speculating about what bigfoots might do can get problematic once you really try to tease apart the mechanisms.

I wasn't suggesting that they use caves the way Neanderthals did or our own species. In fact I should have used the term shelter in place of cave. A rock over hand with a snow drift in front of it could suffice as well as trees with low hanging branches around the circumference. Anything that would get you out of the weather and conserve some body heat. I suspect this is how early man did things being on the move often without being able to construct real shelters, or get a fire going, etc. Any survival manual can point a person in the right direction with what to look for in colder climates. A snow cave with some fir boughs laid down works great for the person lost in winter time.

[Drew]

You can call all the expert witnesses you want to, I am still going to get up there and ask them if they have any DNA from such a creature, or if there is one in a museum somewhere. Of course I will get some experts on Biology, and Ecology, I will ask theye think there is a possibility that a 9'x6' 600 lb creature is living undiscovered in the semi-rural areas of North America.

I've got the whole world of experts to choose from, you've got like 10.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Drew