Operation Persistence

[WSA]

dmaker, if I understand you, your are saying that trading off mental agility for higher visual acuity would not be such a great bargain for an animal who is going to need lots of mental agility to deal with an extreme climate. I guess it depends on what advantages you get with that better vision, you know? If you get plenty of food, you can withstand lots of cold. Even a bear (not exactly well know for its brain power) understands how to dig a den and lay low when the weather turns. Who knows what the R value of a WA pelt is anyway? It could explain a lot.

I'm not saying good eyesight is the ONLY adaptation that makes a WA successful, only the most widely reported, and possibly a major contributor to its evolutionary success. This species may not have been iliving in extremely cold climates long enough to diverge from its sub-species like the grizzly/polar bear example. OR maybe it has, but hasn't found an adaptive advantage to the kinds of evolutionary changes you describe for the polar bear.

I realize it is a "working-backward" analysis based on evidence you don't find compelling, but for me, it is as simple as, "Well, they are in that environment, they must have adapted. What can we deduce from the evidence " What I keep coming back to is the vision thing, primarily.

[dmaker]

Your assumption on my point is correct WSA. I do understand where you are coming from, but your closing comment strikes me as the type of thinking that leads to the layering of abilities on BF so that the credibility is not stretched by the range of abilities and reported habitat. When someone says:

" I realize it is a "working-backward" analysis based on evidence you don't find compelling, but for me, it is as simple as, "Well, they are in that environment, they must have adapted. What can we deduce from the evidence " What I keep coming back to is the vision thing, primarily. "

First of all you are going with the assumption that they are actually in that environment without that being proven to be true ( no offense intended Bipto), and when dealing with a putative species that strikes me as a bit dangerous when that is followed by your next comment that opens the door for imagining adaptations to explain something that has yet to be proven. Imagine this happening all over the continent for a couple of generations. What you end up with is something like what we have A creature that can live anywhere and do almost anything.

Edited April 23, 2013 by dmaker

[indiefoot]

It seems to me that the multiple reports of quad locomotion being practiced on a regular basis would make tool use difficult. Tools are too valuable to throw away so you can climb a ridge in a hurry using your hands.

In many cases what you gain with technology comes with a corresponding loss of freedom.IMO

[WSA]

dmaker, looks like you've come to the wrong thread then, sorry. At least for a discussion with me you have.

Indiefoot: Good point. When you think about it though, even a stick is a tool if you use it to bang on a tree to communicate. Easily replaceable, and not requiring much modification, but a tool nonetheless. Ditto for two rocks you bang together. Both are amplifying and modifying the sounds you are able to create on your own. As a musician, I can definitely relate to that feeling: It good. And it is probably neurologically satisfying for any animal who has the ability to bash two objects together and get that feeling of power, and it also doesn't take much of a caloric investment to develop that skill. (I think Pete Townsend once said as much about Keith). Who knows? A WA may have very selective criteria for the kinds of trees/sticks/rocks it prefers. At the least, one should know if it selects a punky stick it isn't going to have the desired result. The preference could even be specific to individual animals. There is some learning going on there, it looks like to me.

[dmaker]

^^ Keith Moon or Keith Richards ?

[WSA]

You have to ask? I imagine Bipto might get a response to Quadraphenia, at maximum volume. "Bellboy" would be my cut of choice.

[dmaker]

Quadrophenia ..one of my favorite movies and Who albums. But then I rode a Vespa and was part of a mod crowd when I was that age. Mod revival that is, I'm not THAT old.

Sorry for the temporary thread derail.

Edited April 24, 2013 by dmaker

[Guest]

Uh-oh dmaker, you just may have just made a new friend. I've still got old friends running around on Lambrettas and Vespas. I've got a closet full of Fred Perry's, Ben Shermans, and Sta-prest that I've grown a bit too rotund for. There will be a PM coming your way soon.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Irish73

[Drew]

We have some things planned out, but are also aware that we can't plan for every contingency and will have to be flexible when the time comes. Short version is, we will have multiple samples from the specimen safely secured and the specimen itself well documented by qualified individuals from outside our group and the bigfoot community prior to making any public announcements.

You mean "Individuals from outside our group, and from outside the bigfoot community" right?

[Sunflower]

It seems to me that the multiple reports of quad locomotion being practiced on a regular basis would make tool use difficult. Tools are too valuable to throw away so you can climb a ridge in a hurry using your hands.

In many cases what you gain with technology comes with a corresponding loss of freedom.IMO

That's a very likely occurence and I agree. However, you have to wonder why five gallon buckets seem to disappear from known areas of visitation?????

[Cotter]

edit.

nebbermind

Edited April 25, 2013 by Cotter

[Guest Big-B]

Re: Exploring Area X

Two caveats are needed. First, I am a skeptic. Actually more than a skeptic, an unbeliever. Second, I know some of the people involved and find them to be among the kindest and most generous people I know.

That said, I have walked the entirety of Valley X and have yet to encounter any item of significance. When I say I have explored it thoroughly I mean the entire length of the valley: floor, ridges, draws, knobs. I've walked transits across it to fully know the land. I did it partly out of my love of nature and exploration and partly as a product of my research of biogeography in Oklahoma. My time there has not been slight. It was done over 9 months in stretches of 3 to 5 days. I know the area very well. In that time, with one exception I was alone, save my dog Daisy. I regularly either camped or just slept on the ground if there was no rain forecast. I was never accosted. Never thrown rocks at. Never witnessed an unusual creature. Yes, I did see several of the groups cameras and blinds.

So then, what is my reason for responding? I have great concern that someone is going to be injured in this quest to "harvest" a bigfoot. The previous attempts to kill something, the heavy use of military jargon, the videos showing people armed to the teeth and looking to kill something has me concerned for the jolly soul out exploring. As this valley is 95% public land, the potential is there. Additionally, there is no way to exit the small private in holding these cabins are on without venturing into public land. Additionally, the public land surrounding it has old logging trails from all cardinal points encouraging exploration.

So then, how does the group address these concerns?

[Guest]

Nice post, wish I had a plus to give.

Edited May 8, 2013 by apehuman

[Cotter]

Well, as a skeptic Big-B, you should understand more than most that your story is just that, a story.

 

To my knowledge, the folks conducting operation persistence have not released the location of "Area X".  So how are you sure that you are in the area?  Additionally, I'm guessing that proving such may even be harder.

 

Also, you admittedlly covered only 95% of the area, (a quick breakdown of how you determined that would be nice), so we still have approx 5% of the property these elusive creatures could have been.  Assuming they simply didn't just move around you when you were hiking.  Unless you did cover 100% of the area, did you? 

 

Are hikers usually concerned with other hunters as well?  Or is it simply you are scared of your safety when in this area?  I don't think it's BF hunters you need to be concerned with, as there have been documented infinitely more cases of turkey hunters, deer hunters, pheasant hunters, and small game hunters that have shot humans and not a single BF hunter shooting a human. 

 

Another comment - if one could simply go hiking in the woods repeatedly to see one of these creatures, would we be here today pecking away discussing the phenom?

 

And finally, please read the Operation Persistence thread, part 1.  I feel Bipto has explained and re-explained his group's precautions so as they don't shoot anything else but one of these forest primates.  Animals and humans alike.

 

Thx.

[slabdog]

In that time, with one exception I was alone, save my dog Daisy.

"Daisy" ehh?

Do you keep her in a box?

Edited May 8, 2013 by slabdog