Operation Persistence

[Sunflower]

You guys forgot the white, tan and mottled colored hairy guys.  Some have a spot of white on them as well. 

[Guest DWA]

I'm a bit confused. I don't really see an answer to the question. I see a complete dismissal of the question as " ...no point in getting all caught up in that..." I also see a comparison to orangs, a comparison to two bear species ( relevance of that escapes me), and then a drift into a discussion of eye shine. None of which, that I can see, really directly addresses the interesting question posed by jerrywayne. Unless Bipto is suggesting the Wood Apes are orangs..?

Well, some knowledge of animals is required to follow the discussion.

[dmaker]

^^ How so specifically? By comparing bears to primates?

[Guest]

Unless Bipto is suggesting the Wood Apes are orangs..?

 

The OP reference the lack of color in primate species and I pointed out there actually is a large amount of variation among orangutans. Seems fairly straightforward. 

 

And, of course, as DWA pointed out, there's a lot of variation in the primates called Homo sapiens. 

[dmaker]

I gather, then, that you consider the question answered by pointing out that bears have varying colored coats?

EDIT: just saw your most recent response Bipto. Fair enough. I'm satisfied. And as DWA put it, it's probably not really worth getting all caught up in. Let's actually classify a BF before we bicker about coat color variation.

Edited May 17, 2013 by dmaker

[salubrious]

If we look at the great apes, we find not a great deal of variation in hair color within each species. Gorillas are dark brown and chimps are basically black, while both show graying with age. Orangs are famously the gingers of the ape world. Of course, some color variation occurs with albinism, and at least one gorilla is known for its white hair and blue eyes.  

 

If we look at the native apes of Oklahoma, eyewitnesses have reported black, red (auburn), and gray. Does anyone have an explanation for this phenomena? I'm no geneticist, but why are these apes atypically possessing colors that are found in two different species of apes (chimps and orangs)?  Would their low population levels and small gene pool mitigate against or initiate full body-hair color variation such as that claimed for the Oklahoma apes?   

 

FB/FB says that BF express all the same colors that humans do. Given the subject, its likely that that is the best explanation you are going to get for a while

[Guest]

This was put together for a discussion we had on this topic within the NAWAC. Based on both our own observations and the record of witness accounts from our database, it appears as though wood apes have similar ranges of color variation.

 

[Guest COGrizzly]

I see even Orangs like the Bieber hair style. (middle row, far right)

[Guest]

 

Unless Bipto is suggesting the Wood Apes are orangs..?

 

The OP reference the lack of color in primate species and I pointed out there actually is a large amount of variation among orangutans. Seems fairly straightforward. 

 

And, of course, as DWA pointed out, there's a lot of variation in the primates called Homo sapiens. 

 

 

 

Unless Bipto is suggesting the Wood Apes are orangs..?

 

The OP reference the lack of color in primate species and I pointed out there actually is a large amount of variation among orangutans. Seems fairly straightforward. 

 

And, of course, as DWA pointed out, there's a lot of variation in the primates called Homo sapiens. 

 

 

In one of your talks you spoke about using science to help your organization understand the phenomena in Area X. In science, it is useful to extrapolate the known to the unknown, if the unknown is proposed to be similar in some way to the known. For instance, Ms. Strain has argued that the unknown animals in Area X are "apes" because they behave like apes, specifically chimpanzees. She has taken what is known, ape behavior, and applied it to the unknown in question, the anomalous primates at Area X in Oklahoma.    

 

We know that the known great apes have limited color variation within each species. The chimpanzee, the ape most resembling the anomalous apes in Oklahoma in behavior, are generally black. The gorilla is dark brown, and the orangutan, as you point out, is various shades of "red." To correctly extrapolate the issue here, we would not extrapolate from known bear to unknown ape, as DWA does. And given that the North American Wood Ape Conservancy is not the North American Homo Sapiens Conservancy, it would not behoove us to extrapolate from known human variation to unknown ape variation.

 

Your photos of various color shading of orangutans is probably the best you can do to illustrate intraspecies variation that is relevant to the issue. Even here, though, the range is not as striking as what is purported to be found in the apes of the Oklahoma hill country. The issue of the limited population and small gene pool is also overlooked by your comments. If there is a small number of an unknown species of ape living today, would the fact of its small number favor or disfavor the origin of genetic mutations that would account for a variety of colors within one species? If such conditions would favor such mutation, why do we not find such an extent of variations in known, extant apes? 

 

Would a better explanation, one that goes along with the existence of the Oklahoma apes for the sake of argument, suggest that people are not seeing different colored apes at all. Perhaps, for instance, what you claimed to see, a black thing, was just a red ape in deep shade or at dusk?       

[Guest DWA]

"To correctly extrapolate the issue here, we would not extrapolate from known bear to unknown ape, as DWA does."

 

But we can't correctly extrapolate; we can only speculate.  And of course we are speculating based on what people are actually reporting seeing.

 

My point is that color variation within a species isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon.  If it's known to occur, it makes no difference what kind of animal has it.  It's known to occur; and it's not a surprising thing to run into.

[Guest]

   We know that the known great apes have limited color variation within each species. 

 

Further examples of color variation among primate species attached. 

 

Would a better explanation, one that goes along with the existence of the Oklahoma apes for the sake of argument, suggest that people are not seeing different colored apes at all. Perhaps, for instance, what you claimed to see, a black thing, was just a red ape in deep shade or at dusk?       

 

 

Hard to say. We have seen animals that appear to be jet black, but also some that suggest more of an orangutang coloration range. We've also seen the large grey one. Until we have more date, all we can do is record our observations and conjecture as to their meaning. 

My point is that color variation within a species isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon.  If it's known to occur, it makes no difference what kind of animal has it.  It's known to occur; and it's not a surprising thing to run into.

 

That's essentially our position. 

Edited May 18, 2013 by bipto

[Guest]

"To correctly extrapolate the issue here, we would not extrapolate from known bear to unknown ape, as DWA does."

 

But we can't correctly extrapolate; we can only speculate.  And of course we are speculating based on what people are actually reporting seeing.

 

My point is that color variation within a species isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon.  If it's known to occur, it makes no difference what kind of animal has it.  It's known to occur; and it's not a surprising thing to run into.

Thanks amigo. But I don't see speculation. I see more of a "it is what it is" declaration. However, Bipto has provided more photos, although some are of monkeys and lesser apes, that show great ape variation and put the issue in the ballpark, if not on the field, of explaining the puzzle. 

[norseman]

It's my understanding that chimps have been observed mimicking speech. Regardless, we believe they're excellent mimics, voices or otherwise.

For example: http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

And...

2 points:

1. learning one word 'mama' is far flung from being speech or sentences like the 'Samurai sounds'

2. That chimpanzee was probably painstakingly taught that one word by someone. Samurai sounds have been learned by Bigfoot in the wild.

Two completely different things.

1) How do you know it is a language they are speaking?

Probably? I can accept that it could be as simple as a mimicry.

[salubrious]

Could the grey one be older, such that its gone grey? I've seen cats and dogs, even birds (eagles, which go all-white) get grey hair.

[Guest]

Possibly. The few sightings our members have had of that one where they could make out some detail leads many of us to believe its actually colored grey as opposed to it having gone grey, but who knows? Also, it doesn't appear to be a "silverback" kind of coloration. It appears to be different shades of grey on different parts of its body.

 

In our database of accounts from the public, grey is a minority to be sure, but represented.