The Motivation To Hoax

[Guest BFSleuth]

I just took time to read through the first week or so of the original Elbe trackway thread. My own conclusion is that comments from people that were actually involved with the trackway on this forum were largely hopeful and at times fairly conclusive about the trackway being real. However, the primary investigator had little input on this forum thread.

In terms of the general BFF membership we had some members that were skeptical from the beginning, pointing out obvious flaws in the morphology of the tracks. Other members (myself included) were withholding an opinion in the absence of complete information and images.

Red flags from a variety of angles were popping up from the OP onward, like why did the organization that received the original report of the trackway not go immediately to investigate?

Now almost all the images of the trackway have been stripped from the thread. Perhaps this is in consideration of keeping the investigation close to the vest. I look forward to reading the final report and how they found the hoax.

Edited October 20, 2012 by BFSleuth

[Guest]

In other words, there's no timeline showing they had publicly stated their doubts from the beginning, nor have you provided any evidence of that.

That's what I had been arguing -- that their public statements for the first few days, indicated they thought the tracks were real.

None of us are mind-readers, so we can only form a conclusion based on what they expressed in published writings or an interview. In viewing those writings and listening to the interview, I came to the conclusion that they (DDA & DR) thought the tracks were real in those first few days.

I can conclude NOW they think it's a hoax, but I came to no such conclusion in the beginning, given their recorded public statements.

RayG

Still forging away on that wordsmithing I see.

When you stop trying to force people to say what YOU want them to say WHEN you want them to say it and look at what they DID say and either accept it or PROVE they are not telling the truth, then maybe we can have a conversation.

Mulder - Did they really stop posting because of JohnC? Sometimes folks just need a break from here I think.

Go back and read what they have said.

At least no one is accusing them of exactly what you accused Tontar of - avoiding interaction because they are guilty of hoaxing.

Because DDA and Derek in fact are not guilty of hoaxing.

[Guest RayG]

Mulder, I DID look at what they said. That's how I came to the conclusion I did. There was no guessing on my part, no forcing them to say one thing or another, I just read what they wrote and listened to what they said.

Yes, eventually, they concluded it was a hoax, but in the beginning (first week - 10 days) they were touting the trackway as the real deal, and they did so right here on the forum. Still waiting for you to provide the evidence from the first week - 10 days that caused you to conclude otherwise.

RayG

[Guest]

^Get a new tune Ray, this one's played out.

If you have any proof that they did not have suspicions about Elbe from day 1. NOT that they didn't voice them, but that they in fact did not have them, then post it, or retract your claim.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Mulder

[Guest]

I'm curious if this applies. I like to pull hoaxes on my friends and family especially the kids. Xmas is coming and evidence of Santa and elves and reindeer will abound. I can see someone thinking he is spreading excitement and joy to believers rather than having some vicious agenda.

Hoaxing of any kind is bad. Your children will be upset with you someday when the curtain comes down. If they go to school you are also putting them in a hard place. They believe SC is real and will get into arguments with other kids who know he is not. See where this is going?

Edited October 21, 2012 by Woodswalker

[Guest]

Mulder, I have no "proof" that they had suspicions about Elbe from day one and you have no "proof" they did. All we have is the statement that they had doubts after the facts were revealed. Several of us cannot see the doubts in their comments from the first 10 days. If you can provide them, please do so, No one is claiming that DDA and DR are hoaxers. They were the victims of a hoax. I was asking them, what was the doubt and when it happened.

[Guest]

^Now you are doing it. They had unvoiced doubts from day 1. That is what they SAID. If you have proof that they did NOT have unvoiced doubts from day 1 then you need to post it. Otherwise their direct testimony (in their posts) that they in fact did have those doubts stands unchallenged, and the Skeptics and "gotcha" players need to drop it.

Post.

Your.

Proof.

[Guest Transformer]

^I predicted the WTC attack. I also predicted the great mortgage and loans economic disaster. I predicted the World series winners the last 10 years in a row. I just didn't tell anybody about it and I had every opportunity in the world to go on record but I chose not to. But you believe me, right? After all, there is no proof to the contrary so you must believe me.

[Guest]

^Now you are doing it. They had unvoiced doubts from day 1. That is what they SAID. If you have proof that they did NOT have unvoiced doubts from day 1 then you need to post it. Otherwise their direct testimony (in their posts) that they in fact did have those doubts stands unchallenged, and the Skeptics and "gotcha" players need to drop it.

Post.

Your.

Proof.

OK, they say they had unvoiced doubts from day 1. Why is it my or anyone's responsibilty to supply the proof to back DDA and DR's statements? They need to do that. I was not asking for proof anyway. I was asking for more detail or even discussion regarding their statement.

[Guest BFSleuth]

IMHO the entire issue of whether or not researchers involved with the Elbe trackway were initially taken in by the tracks or not boils down to the question of whether or not the hoaxers can claim some kind of "victory" based on short term "gullibility". If that is the end game, to have a few days of hope and anticipation in the bigfoot community, then let's all bow down to the great hoaxers, for they are a resounding success.

However, if the real goal of the hoaxers was to ultimately have the tracks confirmed as the real thing, then they have fairly obviously failed. There were repeated questions of whether or not Meldrum or Chillicut would review the tracks in the thread, which seems to be a tip that they were hoping for the ultimate prize. Once the tracks would have been confirmed, then they could come out with the big news conference or documentary and become heroes in the skeptic community, taking down multiple big name players in the bigfoot research community.

Against the backdrop of what actually happened, I think trying to declare the Elbe hoax a success is like a football team that just got drummed 60 to 3 and crowing how they scored 3 points. Sure, at least they didn't get shut out.

Any subscribers to the Bigfoot Times newsletter?

[Guest]

I was listening to Sharon Lee's show the other day. She Had Derek on as a guest. He said on that show they don't actually know if the person they're talking to is the hoaxer or what involvement this person had in the hoax, if any.

[Guest]

Nicely put BFSlueth. That about sums it up =) +1

[Guest]

IMHO the entire issue of whether or not researchers involved with the Elbe trackway were initially taken in by the tracks or not boils down to the question of whether or not the hoaxers can claim some kind of "victory" based on short term "gullibility". If that is the end game, to have a few days of hope and anticipation in the bigfoot community, then let's all bow down to the great hoaxers, for they are a resounding success.

However, if the real goal of the hoaxers was to ultimately have the tracks confirmed as the real thing, then they have fairly obviously failed. There were repeated questions of whether or not Meldrum or Chillicut would review the tracks in the thread, which seems to be a tip that they were hoping for the ultimate prize. Once the tracks would have been confirmed, then they could come out with the big news conference or documentary and become heroes in the skeptic community, taking down multiple big name players in the bigfoot research community.

Against the backdrop of what actually happened, I think trying to declare the Elbe hoax a success is like a football team that just got drummed 60 to 3 and crowing how they scored 3 points. Sure, at least they didn't get shut out.

Any subscribers to the Bigfoot Times newsletter?

BFSleuth: I have been sitting here reading the comment by you that I quoted above... You're right. On all counts.

I see this alleged hoaxing as a kind of turning point for our community. Before this situation a known hoaxer would be run out. Now, it seems like there is a call to allow the hoaxers and trash the researchers.. But, in this particular situation, if this is a hoax (and I am willing to bet my life it is) I still don't know what we were all supposed to learn? There had to be an "end goal" - especially if the hoaxer was/is a part of this community.

We already knew hoaxing tracks is possible. So, was it really the goal of this hoaxer to just simply create this track way to fool these researchers? If memory serves - the initial email was sent to Cliff Barackman. I highly doubt the hoaxer thought for a second the people - who got involved - would or did. Could this have been an attempt to simply discredit Cliff Barackman (remember he is the casting guru for the show Finding Bigfoot)??

Clearly this is not about "teaching" at all. Why do I say that? How long ago was this track way left? Have we heard why or how? Have we learned anything other than there is someone within our midst who is intent on hoaxing field researchers? Nope.. That is the lesson I am taking away. Whomever this is - is staying very quiet. If the reasons behind the hoax were as noble as teaching us something - why wouldn't this person want to tell us how much more they know about hoaxing a track way than the rest of us?

If what this person did was so righteous - where are they? Lord knows whomever the hoaxer is - they have support for their actions. Which is sad - but probably for another thread.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Melissa

[Drew]

And if the 'Hairy Back' photo taker comes forward and says it was a hoax, what will be the reaction of all the people that said it looks real? will they say they too thought it was fake, they just didn't say it?

[Guest]

BFSleuth: I have been sitting here reading the comment by you that I quoted above... You're right. On all counts.

I see this alleged hoaxing as a kind of turning point for our community. Before this situation a known hoaxer would be run out. Now, it seems like there is a call to allow the hoaxers and trash the researchers.. But, in this particular situation, if this is a hoax (and I am willing to bet my life it is) I still don't know what we were all supposed to learn? There had to be an "end goal" - especially if the hoaxer was/is a part of this community.

We learn not to put out or publically discuss information regarding an ongoing investigation. Wait until it's done and then put the information out and also how and why those conclusions were made.

We already knew hoaxing tracks is possible. So, was it really the goal of this hoaxer to just simply create this track way to fool these researchers? If memory serves - the initial email was sent to Cliff Barackman. I highly doubt the hoaxer thought for a second the people - who got involved - would or did. Could this have been an attempt to simply discredit Cliff Barackman (remember he is the casting guru for the show Finding Bigfoot)??

I agee, IMO the target was definately Cliff and the finding Bigfoot team. The hoaxer probably wanted to see his work on TV. The others who got involved were not the original targets.

Clearly this is not about "teaching" at all. Why do I say that? How long ago was this track way left? Have we heard why or how? Have we learned anything other than there is someone within our midst who is intent on hoaxing field researchers? Nope.. That is the lesson I am taking away. Whomever this is - is staying very quiet. If the reasons behind the hoax were as noble as teaching us something - why wouldn't this person want to tell us how much more they know about hoaxing a track way than the rest of us?

It was about "I gotcha" on the investigators for the hoaxer.

If what this person did was so righteous - where are they? Lord knows whomever the hoaxer is - they have support for their actions. Which is sad - but probably for another thread.

They are still around.

And if the 'Hairy Back' photo taker comes forward and says it was a hoax, what will be the reaction of all the people that said it looks real? will they say they too thought it was fake, they just didn't say it?

Good Question.