Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest FootDude]

So why the need for this reassurance? If you're confident then there's no need is there?

You mean other than to counter the inferences of fraud previously made against Melba Ketchum earlier in this thread?

BartloJays, on 01 January 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

You see that’s where you and I see things very differently as you speak as if you’re in the know about her even having a paper “currently†in peer review. I’m not only not convinced that is the case (and why shouldn’t I be with only here-say) but I’m not even sure she has a viable paper. I’ve heard multiple things from those close to her including: not currently in peer review in the US only Russia.... to peer review in US, now or at anytime in the last two yrs.... to has already passed peer review etc… I've heard it all...."we've" all heard it all

As far as I’m concerned it doesn’t exist without some substantiation, I’ve not asked anybody to take my word for it on good faith, don’t expect me to take yours.

I also couldn’t disagree with you more as perception means zero with respect to the bigfoot community as opposed to the big picture (if she’s got it, she’ll be fine). What the bigfoot community needs is transparency and researchers to do what’s right as opposed to worrying about how they are perceived and accepted socially. That's part of the problem with bigfoot research today.

Edited January 3, 2013 by FootDude

[Guest BartloJays]

Why haven't you asked Bart and Tyler to do the same?

Probably because that's all we've done for for the length of this thread. If you need more, don't worry, much more is coming.

You mean other than to counter the inferences of fraud previously made against Melba Ketchum earlier in this thread?

Excellent post you had chosen to highlight if I might say so myself because it's right on the money, you have zero substantiation to share at this time, do you not? Has something changed in the last 24 hrs? Pointing out an absence of evidence at this time does not equate to inferences of fraud. If that's what you measure it by, the whole forum is accusing her of fraud because most don't share your blind confidance in her work when there's been nothing to show for it at least up to this point. I'm sorry but that's a fact. Hopefully that will change tomorrow.

Edited January 3, 2013 by BartloJays

[Guest]

Every thread comes full circle to the same few topics now. Melba Ketchum may be the nicest woman on Earth, and her research may be 100% complete and accurate.....and I hope it is......I really do! I would love nothing more for someone to prove to the greater scientific community and world at large, that at least one species of large previously unclassified primate is stealthily roaming at least one continent. I would love to put an end to all of the speculation as to what it is, and what their abilities are. BUT ........... There have already been so many red flags, every fiber of my being says something is seriously amiss with the whole situation.

Here are a few of the big ones for me. Excuse the poor sentence structure.

-The tabloid style press release without any peer reviewed evidence to show.

-Saying things like Bigfoots braided her horses hair.

-The talk of the "Angel DNA" (this was never clarified).

-Talking about seeing a family of BF cavorting through a meadow.

-The nature of the complaints about her business practices.

-She says that “their science is overkill beyond reasonâ€, and that her work has already been reviewed and verified by double digits of top scientists (what I can only assume means actual geneticists and/ or molecular biologists, NOT just other Veterinarians! ) Who are they? Wouldn’t they help get the ball rolling on by endorsing a proper peer review process?

After hearing Todd Disotell speculate on the subject, and hearing Ketchum actually speaking (on Coast to Coast AM nonetheless), it extinguished the last molecule of hope for me. Is it possible that she may not be qualified with the proper skill set and equipment to carry out the level of genetic research she is attempting? Is she possibly looking at contaminated samples and misinterpreting the data? What's with all of the conflicting data on the supposed bigfoot steak samples? I’m trying to be kind here. Every red flag I can think of stems directly from her making statements that she never backs up, do you see the pattern here?

She claims to have some stunning Hi-Def video. She could end much of the speculation right now by using that to draw interest from a legitimate scientific journal to initiate a review of all of her data.

My predictions for 2013,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Endless excuses why DNA data has been delayed.

Endless Youtube videos from the same few blowhards.

Guys like Dyer and Fasano will create constant drama and officially leave and return to Bigfooting at least once.

This thread will be over 900 pages long.

At least two more people will say they have a body, and no body will be produced.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Irish73

[Guest Theagenes]

I think Tyler H and BartloJays have done a fine job of presenting proof of their claims in literally an open forum. (at least they do have the data claimed) Ketchum has not done anything openly except make huge claims and media releases with nothing to substantiate them. I think Tyler H and BartloJays both are trying to look out for one of Ketchums sponsers that has been very good to the bigfooting world. Rightfully so in my opinion.

In my opinion proponents of bigfoot should be behind these actions, and questioning Ketchum and her claims/data/motives at this point. She's done nothing but talk.

MKs problem is not that she should be sharing her data with you before it's published. That would not be appropriate. Her problem is that she never should have commented at all. The press release, the. FB posts, etc. were huge mistakes. She should have followed Sykes lead and kept her cards close to her vest regardless of how much the BF community pouted and stamped its feet.

Probably because that's all we've done for for the length of this thread. If you need more, don't worry, much more is coming.

Excellent post you had chosen to highlight if I might say so myself because it's right on the money, you have zero substantiation to share at this time, do you not? Has something changed in the last 24 hrs? Pointing out an absence of evidence at this time does not equate to inferences of fraud. If that's what you measure it by, the whole forum is accusing her of fraud because most don't share your blind confidance in her work when there's been nothing to show for it at least up to this point. I'm sorry but that's a fact. Hopefully that will change tomorrow.

Bart, I am not an MK supporter. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just watching from the sidelines to see how it all plays out.

But like Footdude, I also got the impression that you were hinting that she might be a fraud (rather than just misinterpreting her data). If that is not what you were implying, then I misunderstood and I apologize for that.

It's true that others here have made such accusations (and usually the moderators are quick to shut it down). But you are a prominent BF researcher who is involved with the situation, not just some anonymous poster on a forum (like me). Your words carry a lot more weight.

[southernyahoo]

Probably because that's all we've done for for the length of this thread. If you need more, don't worry, much more is coming

I hope someone can show me a micrograph photo of one of the hairs from the Smeja sample clearly showing the vacuolated uniserial ladder medulla which is diagnostic to black bear hairs. This is something that should have been done at the very start of any investigation on prospective samples from ursus americanus. It sure could save amatuers alot of money playing gotcha too.

[Guest wudewasa]

Instead of arguing over the DNA, hair texture, color and comparison known wildlife, why don't we all strive for a body to be found? DNA doesn't seem to convince academics or a number of members here on BFF about the existence of sasquatches.

24 pages about bear DNA and pure speculation over hearsay: the bar has been lowered to unblelievable depths.

[georgerm]

A live BF may have been captured............................find the thread ........Oh, Dear another body........

[Guest wudewasa]

Yup, we can neither confirm or deny the existence of a squatch in the box, or yet another purported carcass amongst us.

Well, off to do something constructive this morning...

Edited January 3, 2013 by wudewasa

[bipedalist]

Funny that the same people running the red flag of "angel DNA" up as a statement from Ketchum or that camp (which I would some day like to see pinned as a quote to the source BTW): all I ever read was we have something that's never been seen before--- are the same ones paying blind allegiance, high-fiving and backslapping "other" BFing efforts with no documentation but sound files that are interpreted different ways by different people. It's all in the brand that you choose to follow. I've not seen a confidence band notice attached to anything BF to date. Some brands are slower and more methodical than others it seems.

Yes, sarcasm alert of the highest order.

Edited January 3, 2013 by bipedalist

[southernyahoo]

It's all in the brand that you choose to follow.

Ain't that the truth!

[Guest]

Is that the only red flag you want to address? That particular issue was the absolute least of my concerns.

I don't have blind allegience to anything or anyone. I'm not sure what's meant about high fiving and backsplapping. If you are taliking about the TBRC thread, I have had questions of my own which where either............. (A) Answered to my satisfaction (often with the clarification that they are just working opinions), ( politely declined to answer, in order not to jeopordize ongoing operations, or © were answered with a humble "we don't know."

I'll admit that the TBRC is the "brand" I relate to because they aren't out there claiming spectacular breakthroughs and supernatural hocus pocus. They appear to be all about elbow grease and physical evidence. What they are doing, and the way they are doing it, makes sense to me. But, if you want to criticize the TBRC, it is no skin off my back. They aren't really claiming anything more spectacular than the average Bigfooter on this forum. The Ketchum camp has elected to keep making bold claims to the public, they should be willing to offer clarifications as to what is correct information, what is not, and who is authorized to speak on their behalf.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Irish73

[Guest BartloJays]

MKs problem is not that she should be sharing her data with you before it's published. That would not be appropriate. Her problem is that she never should have commented at all. The press release, the. FB posts, etc. were huge mistakes. She should have followed Sykes lead and kept her cards close to her vest regardless of how much the BF community pouted and stamped its feet.

I can't tell you how spot on you are with this observation as it's a no-brainer.

[Guest BartloJays]

Bart, I am not an MK supporter. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just watching from the sidelines to see how it all plays out.

But like Footdude, I also got the impression that you were hinting that she might be a fraud (rather than just misinterpreting her data). If that is not what you were implying, then I misunderstood and I apologize for that.

It's true that others here have made such accusations (and usually the moderators are quick to shut it down). But you are a prominent BF researcher who is involved with the situation, not just some anonymous poster on a forum (like me). Your words carry a lot more weight.

Thank you as no need to apologize. I cannot say for sure what's going on, hence I haven't (definitively-speaking), however there's ample reason from our position to suspect fraud is a very real "possibility" (certainly not the only possibility) on the table. I'd be lying to tell you otherwise and before even sharing the exchange between Justin and Dr Ketchum last year in which oddly "prophetic" statements among other information was passed, the conflicting reports alone with Dr Ketchum's claim create heavy suspicion, unless you believe A ) Justin would sabotage himself, which to him and us, is crazy and makes zero rational sense B ) two very reputable labs, one, a reputable Canadian institution and lab director (Dr. Bradley White) specializing and recognized for their work in animal diagnostics and a private lab specializing in "human" DNA in US, cannot even pick up a generic primary mammalian contributor through what I understand is universal (mammal) primers.

I mean from our position, we not only can't rule it out but there's more then reasonable suspicion at this point.

My issue with footdude's post should be obvious as he's repeating Dr. Ketchum's points about both data and timelines in which he has zero substantiation to share to back up his statements, then remarkably turning around and saying (and encouraging others) Tyler and I are doing what he's doing, yet we just threw our first lab report down and have been more then willing to answer questions. In addition, as I mentioned, questioning someone (footdude) who's providing nothing to back up his statements of fact on behalf of Dr Ketchum are not inferences of fraud, neither is asking a legit question to CTfoot in the context of what he was discussing.

Edited January 3, 2013 by BartloJays

[Guest]

If a person puts a at the end of a post, is that not a sign of it being jokey or do you still take it so literally ?

Depends on the person. can also be a "fig leaf" for saying something that otherwise might not be kosher, and some people use it as such.

*ETA* Not saying you're one of them, Bobby...should make that clear.

There have already been so many red flags, every fiber of my being says something is seriously amiss with the whole situation.

Here are a few of the big ones for me. Excuse the poor sentence structure.

-The tabloid style press release without any peer reviewed evidence to show.

Embargoed while the paper is under review.

-Saying things like Bigfoots braided her horses hair.

Assuming she said it, what does that have to do with the genetics being studied?

-The talk of the "Angel DNA" (this was never clarified).

Denied by Ketchum. Rumor started by third parties.

-Talking about seeing a family of BF cavorting through a meadow.

Again, affects genetic studies how?

-The nature of the complaints about her business practices.

Not a single complaint about the quality of her genetic findings. Not. A. Single. Complaint.

All of her problems have been in the business office.

-She says that “their science is overkill beyond reasonâ€, and that her work has already been reviewed and verified by double digits of top scientists (what I can only assume means actual geneticists and/ or molecular biologists, NOT just other Veterinarians! ) Who are they? Wouldn’t they help get the ball rolling on by endorsing a proper peer review process?

Still under embargo.

After hearing Todd Disotell speculate on the subject, and hearing Ketchum actually speaking (on Coast to Coast AM nonetheless), it extinguished the last molecule of hope for me.

So you accept Disotell's speculation as valid and demand no "proof", or even "evidence" but are dumping all over Ketchum demanding exactly that? There's a name for that: double-standard.

do you see the pattern here?

Yes, I see a pattern: people endlessly speculating on how she is wrong/deceitful/etc, offering NO evidence that she is, and demanding that she prove them wrong "NOW NOW NOW!"

She claims to have some stunning Hi-Def video. She could end much of the speculation right now by using that to draw interest from a legitimate scientific journal to initiate a review of all of her data.

And the Skeptics would promptly dismiss it as "a man in a suit", like they always do. Assuming that it is even hers to share (given her association with Erikson it's likely one of his).

Edited January 3, 2013 by Mulder

[GuyInIndiana]

I'm continually amazed that this is a thread about "bear DNA" but it winds up being about Ketchum, and since it DID come back bear DNA, that there was really 24 pages that could be said about it.

Again, this goes a long way to explaining why bigfooting is so highly respected in the public eye.