N A W A C - Field Study Discussion

[Guest DWA]

^^^I wonder how many Western hikers even think much about technical summer synthetics.  They were one of the watershed experiences of my lifetime; I took them as evidence that a supreme intelligence may actually exist and that it cares about us.

 

And plastic maps!  They don't melt in your pocket!  Even when it isn't raining!

 

Beer too.  That too.

[1980squatch]

Amen to that. I had been off trail in MI, TN and IN. Then visited CO- you can walk forever without even brushing up against anything. MI was the worst, no topography so no way to climb in or out of the undergrowth.

[Guest DWA]

No kidding.

 

Canadian Rockies, 1989.  We just slogged into the Tonquin Valley in the mud mud mud mud mud mud stop me when I've said mud enough times for you mud mud mud...

 

Now it was time to slog out.

 

SLOG?  WHY?  GO OFF TRAIL, right over the shoulder of, look, this mountain here.  Did it.  Half expected to see Julie Andrews running toward us, dressed like an Austrian, singing.  Crystal, no you can't imagine it, blue sky.  Hundreds and hundreds of the platter-shaped tracks of caribou.  The world, no it was, spread out below us.  I-freaking-dyllic.  Hiking in the West.  Yeah!

 

Can't do that in the East, buddy.  No way nohow.  Stay on that trail; the shortcut is the longest distance between two points.

Or as I put it, another way:

 

95 in the Utah desert feels better than 65 in the East.  By a lot.

[Guest]

I'm from SoCal and only knew the San Gabriel mountains, the southern Sierras, central Oregon, and later in life, Washington and Northern California as far as country goes. The closest I've been to what we experience in X is Northern Minnesota as far as density of flora and difficulty of travel. None of those others was nearly as bad. The thing we don't have in MN so much is the challenging terrain. 

 

Bottom line is, everywhere has its gnarly spots. Even the Ouchitas have areas, like ShadoAngel said, where you can walk relatively easily. But around X, the majority of terrain is a challenge.

 

The image I used as the cover for BFS 51 was taken right out back of the cabins in which we stay. That was from earlier in the year before all the foliage was leafed out. Maybe 80% at this point due to the late spring. It's totally representative of the area all around there. No, it's not all slopes, but the creek bottoms are often just as thick. Anyway, I post it here as a reference. 

 

Here are some more images I posted to Facebook last year.

 

 

 

 

[salubrious]

Also, concerning hair, I'm positive that foliage rips hairs away, but finding them in the undergrowth is another matter. If it was me, I would tend to look for hair on barbed wire fence lines if there are any in the vicinity. That's about the only place I notice deer hair caught that's easily seen.

 

 

Animals can be silent in the forest while on the move because for the most part the foliage does **not** rip hairs away. We humans tend to wear clothes that make a hellava racket in the forest, alerting all the creatures to our presence. Brain-tanned leather is perhaps the most silent clothing material.

 

Barb wire is nice for a lot of creatures as it can make a nice place to scratch an itch. There is a rock at the Jeffers Petroglyphs monument in Minnesota that buffalo have used as a scratching point for hundreds if not thousands of years. So I can imagine certain points on certain fences might get similar treatment.

[Guest]

Here are more images I've taken this year. Note that the foliage in these is also less than it was during the same period a year ago due to the later spring.

 

No, not all areas are totally impassable. Some are relatively open like this one. This is near the creek bottom.

 

 

This is the kind of stuff you need to get through near the base of the slopes.

 

 

Another typical example up away from the creek and off the ridge.

 

 

Often, you find the slopes overgrown with greenbriar and poison oak and ivy and other ground cover.

 

 

Here's one of the secondary roads from my last trip in. That mud would suck your shoe off if you tried to walk through it. My F-150 did it OK but it ripped up some of my deflection panels underneath. This would have shown up as a nice pretty line on a map. Good and thick. 

 

 

Here's a portion from the road into our research area. Like ShadoAngel, I've never taken shots of the road to prove how nasty it is, but I have a few anyway. This part's pretty nice. Tight and overhung, but smooth.

 

 

Here, it's a little more serious. Those rocks can go right through street tires. This is not the worst of it, though. In some parts, it's like this but steeply pitched up or down, or side to side, or rutted and muddy. Note the little water crossing. Those can raise up to your side rails or higher after a good thunderstorm rolls through. 

 

 

I doubt these will change anyone's opinion about the place one way or another, but they are reasonable representations of the environment. 

[Guest DWA]

Now, see, bipto, ya shouldn't have done that.  An essential part of comprehension is the motion-picture take.   Not:  wouldn't it be easy to walk through that picture?  But:  Imagine six hours of that picture.  With 90 degrees and 90% humidity tossed in just for variety.  And, oh, you're trying to do science and operate tech equipment and stay focused on top of that.  And...

Gotta say, though, NICE pictures.  If you're not, you know, trying to walk and drive through them.

[WSA]

Some of these could have been shot in my backyard in Birmingham Bipto! The terrain and flora looks very familiar. Even the composition of the sandstone ledges, etc. Throw in a generous dose of privet hedge, cherry laurel, Kudzo, muscadine vines and copperheads and you've pretty much got it. Hmmmm.....maybe I should think about some trail cams....? 

 

I could also volunteer my son and daughter, ages 8 and 9. They seemed to have mastered this terrain and can move about at will. Does Daddy proud to see it. Helps to be under 5' tall though.

[Guest]

 Nice photos Bipto. Perfectly captured the essence of the character of SE Oklahoma in spring/summer (without the oppressive heat/humidity though. Don't know how you would that do that with photos).

 

When I moved to OK from northern NM years ago, and started up my normal hiking/camping/hunting routine in my new home state, I was appalled at how hot/humid it was in the spring/summer/fall, and how far you couldn't see in the woods. I was floored by the incredibly rich and dense insect/critter life in the woods (i.e. ticks, ants, termites, flies, snakes, etc.), the dangerous plants you had to watch out for (poison ivy, kudzu, brambles and wild roses, etc.), endless mud in the wrong season, and of course, the dangerous weather (i.e. thunderstorms, tornadoes, ice storms, etc.). Before coming to OK, I had never seen: a tick, poison ivy, chiggers, copperheads (dropping from the trees no less), and other fun things that inhabit the woods here. (Woods in the west seem so "clean".) But, now that I am used to it all, I wouldn't even consider moving back...

[hiflier]

Hello All,

Thank you for the lesson. And I agree, an afternoon stroll is way different than spending days or weeks out there. Oh yes, bipto, did I forget to mention that during all your forages into a bug/snake/hot/humid/dense/unpredictable weather-road situation that you are also looking for Bigfoot? My hat's off to you all and you deserve all the write-offs you have. I love how alaskoner hits and runs. What a complete and utter distraction. Well, it is for me anyway. Keep up the fine effort if you can for as long as you can. And good luck. But above all be safe.

Edited July 12, 2013 by hiflier

[Guest]

Magic. Probably. 

OK, seriously, probably the same way other animals are able to traverse the foliage without having all their hair ripped from their bodies. 

 

And magic.

OK, I'll play.

From 2000, when Alton Higgins was introduced to what is now referred to as Area X, to 2013, after several operations set up in the area with the goal of securing definitive proof for Bigfoot's existence, there has been no denouement attachable to the mystery. So, what attributes do the Giant Apes of Oklahoma possess that allow them to remain unclassified?

1. They are super fast, super intelligent, and thus super elusive. In short, they are SuperApes.

2. They are non-existent.

3. They employ magic and thus are magical beings.

Seems you're going for 3.

[Guest Cervelo]

Wow didn't realize this has been going on for 13yrs.

[Guest]

While I admire my skeptic colleague from Alaska for many reasons, I think he and other skeptics miss the boat when they argue that Bigfoot advocacy is nothing but fraud and lies for profit.

I do think he is correct to point out that Area X is not the Congo. Sure, it is dense. But only those who are acclimated to Bigfoot lore will find the area remote enough to have kept its secret from the world, as we are half-way through 2013.

As to the density of flora in Area X. How do giant, broad-bodied apes navigate through such foliage without forging trailways and leaving abundant hair (red, black, white/gray) to be discovered?

 

No, we are not talking about the Congo, in the SE US.......... But a couple of points I'd like to make. The mountain gorilla lives in a 100 x 300 mile range within the Congo. The adjoining forests from the middle of Missouri to the Gulf coast (North/South axis) and from E. Texas to the Mississippi river (East/West axis) is roughly 600 x 300 miles. But then again, the plight of the mountain gorilla is human encroachment, and not just the bush meat trade, but slash and burn farming practices and human populations. Same goes for the Orang in Borneo and palm oil plantations.

 

At least from a habitat POV, I don't think it's a stretch at all. Skeptics point to lack of physical proof and lack of fossil record evidence and they definitely have the right to do so.......it doesn't help proponents at all. But it's not impossible.

 

But in the Macro view? The Canadian shield forest and adjoining forests that cascade down through the US? Smash the whole Congo basin in size, and not just the part that the mountain Gorillas live in, it's not even comparable. And 90 percent of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the US border. Again, improbable but certainly not impossible. I think we tend to see Africa as an exotic place, and North America not so much, it's a jaded view because we live in the more populated places in it.

 

Also, concerning hair, I'm positive that foliage rips hairs away, but finding them in the undergrowth is another matter. If it was me, I would tend to look for hair on barbed wire fence lines if there are any in the vicinity. That's about the only place I notice deer hair caught that's easily seen.

Your analysis is interesting, but not relevant to the point I was making. If you think the beast in question is of low population (in the high hundreds or low thousands) and is very nomadic (if I'm not misremembering, Meldrum once stated single male sasquatch roam up to 1500 miles yearly), then your remarks are certainly germane.

I was striving to note something else. Area X is not remote as it relates to a secreted habitat of a shrewdness of Giant Apes. There are roadways and even scenic hi-ways nearby. Hunters hunt the area. Illegal drug manufacture occurs in the area. (Remember, when the cabin owner's kin was startled by gunfire initiated by a NAWAC member, he fled;he thought he was being fired at by drug operators.) Tourism is important in the area. Everyone from forest rangers to biology field operators to local folks who move about in the woods for adventure and even individual Samaritans who clean trails, are part of the makeup of the area around Area X.

Consider this juxtaposition: the gorilla was confirmed in 1861 when Paul Du Chaillu, a Frenchman, brought back mounted gorillas and gorilla bones from western equatorial Africa/ over 150 years later there is no similar definitive evidence for the existence of Giant Apes living, we are told (and told more often nowadays), right off the main road in Anywhere North America.

Just think. The remote jungle of Gabon relinquished its ape over 150 years ago, to a Frenchman, while the hinterland of Oklahoma has stubbornly refused to give up its Greater Ape. As I said, only someone totally acclimated to Bigfoot lore would not see the problem with Giant Apes living unfound in the state of Oklahoma.

While we can't get trail-cams of the Oklahoma Apes, we apparently can get shots of the most rare big ape known to science: http://www.wcs.org/news-and-features-main/video-captures-hidden-world-of-elusive-apes.aspx

[Guest]

SY large sample of possible BF hair with coccleburrs came from a tall cedar that must have used as a scratching post!

[Guest]

From 2000, when Alton Higgins was introduced to what is now referred to as Area X, to 2013, after several operations set up in the area with the goal of securing definitive proof for Bigfoot's existence, there has been no denouement attachable to the mystery.

 

Let's break that down. 

 

This is the third year of extended, continuous operations in the area. As many days as we can cover with as many people. 

 

Prior to that, it was 5-6 years of the camera trap operation. Infrequent short trips in where we tried to keep as low a profile as possible. Get in, pull cards and swap batteries, and get out. Three to four day operations. 

 

Prior to that it was occasional casual trips in for long weekends, etc., with a couple organized operations with people unfamiliar with the area. 

 

90% of what we believe we've learned has happened in the past three years. Much of what we thought was true has been proven incorrect. Yes, Alton first heard of the area and visited it about 13 years ago, but our learning process has really started in the past couple of years.

 

 

1. They are super fast, super intelligent, and thus super elusive. In short, they are SuperApes.

2. They are non-existent.

3. They employ magic and thus are magical beings.

Seems you're going for 3.

 

Totally going for three. I assume their pointy heads are caused by their wizard hats.

 

In fact, I think it's a bit of one. They're fast, they're furtive, they're wiley. Compared to gorillas or chimps, yeah, I think they are super apes. These animals appear to be true remnant Pleistocene megafauna. They do not have super powers (as many people want to attribute to them - super senses of smell, hearing, vision, capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound sort of stuff), but they're huge and powerful and quick like lightning and masters of the dark. They know that. They're aware of their advantages. Not the way John Travolta knows he's bitchin', but the way lions know they're at the top of the African veldt. They are confident in their abilities. 

 

I hope their reliance on their understood inherent advantages (their overconfidence) is our key to collecting one. We have come remarkably close this year with the tools we've been able to assemble. Closer than ever before. It's a matter of time, as long as we're able to maintain a presence. Just a matter of time. 

 

I was striving to note something else. Area X is not remote as it relates to a secreted habitat of a shrewdness of Giant Apes. There are roadways and even scenic hi-ways nearby. Hunters hunt the area. Illegal drug manufacture occurs in the area. (Remember, when the cabin owner's kin was startled by gunfire initiated by a NAWAC member, he fled;he thought he was being fired at by drug operators.) Tourism is important in the area. Everyone from forest rangers to biology field operators to local folks who move about in the woods for adventure and even individual Samaritans who clean trails, are part of the makeup of the area around Area X.

 

This is the same tired "it's not that remote and there's no place for them to hide" argument that's already been beat to death in this context and in the larger context of the subject. There are people who have been to the remote, wild places of North America and those who haven't. Those who have understand how much "green stuff" is out there in between the scenic by-ways and meth labs. Far more than even Du Chaillu had to explore. 

 

Just think. The remote jungle of Gabon relinquished its ape over 150 years ago, to a Frenchman, while the hinterland of Oklahoma has stubbornly refused to give up its Greater Ape. As I said, only someone totally acclimated to Bigfoot lore would not see the problem with Giant Apes living unfound in the state of Oklahoma.

 

Only someone who has seen, heard, and smelled them would not see the problem. They are there. Period. I know this to be a true fact. My organization would like to prove it to you. That's our goal. 

 

Just think. The remote jungle of Gabon relinquished its ape over 150 years ago, to a Frenchman, while the hinterland of Oklahoma has stubbornly refused to give up its Greater Ape. As I said, only someone totally acclimated to Bigfoot lore would not see the problem with Giant Apes living unfound in the state of Oklahoma.

 

Du Chaillu went where his native guides told him to go. He didn't just walk into the jungle and plug monkeys. 

 

WRT to Du Chaillu, he didn't bring the first skeletal evidence of the gorilla out of Africa, he brought the most complete specimens out and observed them in the wild as no Westerner had to that point. Also, he was not a Frenchman. His father was French, his mother an African of mixed heritage. He called himself an American.

Really, JerryWayne, your arguments seem to boil down to there's no place for them to hide because people and roads are everywhere and they can't exist because Nineteenth Century explorers weren't able to put them in museums. How is this anything new at all? It's just a retread of the same old same old. 

Edited July 13, 2013 by bipto