Guest DWA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 ^^^...and the skeptics will tell you: oh, that ridicule of scientists? That doesn't happen. Stop it. Oh really? Can I see the proof you have of that...?
Cotter Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 I asked the question metaphorically since, of course, tracks wouldn't make any difference in the world. Not one, not a thousand. There already are a plentitude of images and casts of tracks and they don't amount to anything in the minds of far-right sceptics. Unless the tracks are obviously faked. I missed this bit. Isn't this the rub? Isn't this how it always works? Skeptics demand evidence, investigators present evidence, skeptics say it's not good enough/faked/unsubstantiated/contaminated/fill in your issue. Rinse. Repeat. It's like you're Lucy and we're Charlie Brown and you expect us to try and kick that football again. No, not just skeptics. Scientists would require more than squished nuts, thrown rocks, weird sounds, and the testimony of a dozen people who think they saw an UPRIGHT NORTH AMERICAN APE, in the once decimated forests of Oklahoma. You know this, yet you make the skeptics out to be the bad guys. You are claiming to be in the presence of the Ultimate Zoological discovery of the 21st century, and you get bent, when actual evidence is asked-for. You are not Charlie Brown, and skeptics are not Lucy. That comparison is invalid. I am simply asking for the same standard of evidence that is used to catalog every animal that has been documented for the last 400 years or so. Nothing more. My request is as bland and simple as can be expected, considering the Enormity of the claim you are making. Well, I personally haven't seen Bipto demand scientific acknowledgement based on the evidence he has gathered. So I don't think your request is any different than his. Do you accept anything he has found as evidence? Do you think a NA Ape would crush nuts? Leave footprints? Be spotted by locals? Make vocalizations? Throw rocks? He has found this evidence that could be attributed to a NA ape, he is following the evidence to gather the proof needed, regardless of the constant barrage of accusations from some of our resident 'skeptics'.
norseman Posted July 15, 2013 Admin Posted July 15, 2013 I asked the question metaphorically since, of course, tracks wouldn't make any difference in the world. Not one, not a thousand. There already are a plentitude of images and casts of tracks and they don't amount to anything in the minds of far-right sceptics. Unless the tracks are obviously faked. I missed this bit. Isn't this the rub? Isn't this how it always works? Skeptics demand evidence, investigators present evidence, skeptics say it's not good enough/faked/unsubstantiated/contaminated/fill in your issue. Rinse. Repeat. It's like you're Lucy and we're Charlie Brown and you expect us to try and kick that football again. No, not just skeptics. Scientists would require more than squished nuts, thrown rocks, weird sounds, and the testimony of a dozen people who think they saw an UPRIGHT NORTH AMERICAN APE, in the once decimated forests of Oklahoma. You know this, yet you make the skeptics out to be the bad guys. You are claiming to be in the presence of the Ultimate Zoological discovery of the 21st century, and you get bent, when actual evidence is asked-for. You are not Charlie Brown, and skeptics are not Lucy. That comparison is invalid. I am simply asking for the same standard of evidence that is used to catalog every animal that has been documented for the last 400 years or so. Nothing more. My request is as bland and simple as can be expected, considering the Enormity of the claim you are making. Your confusing evidence with proof...........which skeptics do over and over again. Bipto is not getting bent over you or any scientist asking for "actual evidence" aka proof. On the contrary he and his organization are working very hard to deliver that proof to you. But in the mean time? It's like skeptics don't want to talk about any evidence, which is not how hunting an animal works. If this forum was dedicated to bear hunting instead of Sasquatch? Would you observe hunters talking about tracks? Calls? Habitat? Tactics? Rifles? Binoculars? Size? Gender? Etc? Why yes.........yes we would. Nobody is asking you or any other skeptic to accept a track as proof, but for the hunter it's still a very valid talking point in the practice of tracking a animal and harvesting it. I think skeptics feel they need to attack any evidence shown because, if they do not do so it somehow gives legitimacy to the existence of the creature........ the NAWAC is way past that stage in the game. In their mind that fact is already established. This is where skeptics become the bad guys.......... any time evidence is talked about they start bringing up pink unicorns and lack of proof. It does nothing to further the discussion, nor in this example does it further the case that a type specimen is needed for proof. The NAWAC is very committed to this endeavor, unlike other organizations. So what is your beef? 1
Guest DWA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 No, not just skeptics. Scientists would require more than squished nuts, thrown rocks, weird sounds, and the testimony of a dozen people who think they saw an UPRIGHT NORTH AMERICAN APE, in the once decimated forests of Oklahoma. You know this, yet you make the skeptics out to be the bad guys. You are claiming to be in the presence of the Ultimate Zoological discovery of the 21st century, and you get bent, when actual evidence is asked-for. You are not Charlie Brown, and skeptics are not Lucy. That comparison is invalid. I am simply asking for the same standard of evidence that is used to catalog every animal that has been documented for the last 400 years or so. Nothing more. My request is as bland and simple as can be expected, considering the Enormity of the claim you are making. It's the bigfoot skeptics that are making the preposterous claim. But they don't seem to think about this topic enough to see that very plain fact. What is unusual about an UPRIGHT NORTH AMERICAN APE? Nothing that science tells us, is your answer. But an UPRIGHT NORTH AMERICAN APE is so all-caps unbelievable to bigfoot skeptics that they would accept O.J. Simpson laying down every scrap of evidence on record as a handy alternative explanation. (Which, if one thinks about it, which they don't, is pretty much in the same league of possibility as any other scenario they offer.) No. I'm precisely right on this. Remember Ray Wallace? "Bigfoot Found....It's This Guy"? O.J. is a lot faster. He's a much more plausible choice. Asking for proof is one thing. But coming on here to say one silly thing after another to the people who are working to get your proof for you is beyond what I consider responsible intellectual endeavor.
Drew Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 What silly thing have I said? I've said I cannot accept stories and rock-throwing as proof of a creature.
norseman Posted July 15, 2013 Admin Posted July 15, 2013 What silly thing have I said? I've said I cannot accept stories and rock-throwing as proof of a creature. What is silly is that in this thread? Nobody is asking you to accept stories and rock throwing as proof.... The proponents in this thread are very committed to getting you that proof. Is there some confusion here with this point? But there is a process involved with getting proof, it just doesn't happen out of thin air. 1
Drew Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Then why the Lucy / Charlie Brown analogy? Bipto says skeptics are pulling the football away, but by your own words, nothing has been presented that I would accept. You seem to understand that anything short of proof is just stories. Why would Bipto say that I am pulling the football away when he presents another story that I won't accept?
Cotter Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 I've said I cannot accept stories and rock-throwing as proof of a creature. Which is what everyone participating in this thread agrees with and acknowledges. What is silly about it that you keep bringing up that point as if Bipto and his crew are asking that we accept his evidence as proof. I think Bipto's actions show that he himself knows the evidence does not amount to proof. Otherwise, why would he still be out there? 2
norseman Posted July 15, 2013 Admin Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Then why the Lucy / Charlie Brown analogy? Bipto says skeptics are pulling the football away, but by your own words, nothing has been presented that I would accept. You seem to understand that anything short of proof is just stories. Why would Bipto say that I am pulling the football away when he presents another story that I won't accept? Again we come back to the question of proof vs. evidence. The Charlie Brown analogy is dealing with asking for EVIDENCE, and then ripping it to shreds out of dogma. If your asking for proof? And he presents it? Then Lucy has no choice but to dutifully hold the ball while Charlie kicks it through the uprights. Skeptics nor scientists can rip the ball away with a slab monkey. It's over.......done. Stick a fork in it. Let's examine the facts shall we? 1) Is the NAWAC committed to collecting a type specimen? Yes. 2) Is the NAWAC asking skeptics to accept the creature on anything less than said collection? No. 3) Why does the NAWAC talk about evidence? Because examination of the evidence is how we go about collecting a type specimen. 4) Why does the NAWAC keep a thread open on the BFF for people to talk about evidence? Two fold, one it keeps people in the community informed. And two it's a way to get different perspectives and ideas that will help with the pursuit. Drew? The NAWAC, Project Grendel and I'm sure other organizations as well are on your side? Why? Because skeptics rightfully demand proof, as well, you guys seem to claim that you would rejoice if you were wrong and we are right, and such a discovery is made. So where is the problem? The organizations mentioned are going out there armed, looking for said tangible proof. People in this thread recently asked to see NAWAC foot casts......... Bipto responded that they don't really matter anyway, so they don't really take much time with them. I couldn't agree more. The NAWAC gets "it". Foot casts provide sensationalism but no real tangible proof. The only good track is the one the animal is standing in. So no.........nobody in this thread is asking you to accept anything less than real proof. But as far as evidence discussions? Roll up your sleeves and help or get out of the way. A person can be skeptical but still add thoughtful insight into the discussion! Edited July 15, 2013 by norseman 2
Guest DWA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 What silly thing have I said? I've said I cannot accept stories and rock-throwing as proof of a creature. But - and I believe other people are saying this too - nobody, including bipto, is asking anyone to accept anything as proof until they provide the proof. Well, they seem to me to be working on that. I'd just wait 'til they had the proof, personally.
WSA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 All I know is: I believe these people and I can't plausibly explain what Bipto's team is experiencing, at least not by reference to any "known" and "proven" phenomena. That, really, is all you need say. Go on...say it. It won't hurt a bit, I promise.
Guest DWA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 The thing that has me wondering is...well, let me just try it and have people chime in. Bipto is lying. Or he's gullible. Or ....OK, fine. But when he and his buddies walk out with the proof...then what does that make everybody who's been misunderstanding, not following or just plain getting wrong everything he has been saying? Help me with that. Seriously. Is not just "sounds cool. OK, bipto, I await the proof and good hunting" just so much easier to say...?
Guest Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 I have purposefully avoided posting in this thread (or reading much of it) because I don't feel that I have much to contribute to it. Either the NAWAC folks are trying to obtain a specimen (which is what I would be doing if I thought bigfoots were real [though I would be silent about it until I had one]) or they're intentionally creating the impression that they're trying to obtain a specimen but they actually have no intention of doing that (which I cannot know). Regardless of intent, they will either be successful in producing a specimen (proving bigfoot) or they won't. I've been waiting my whole life for someone who claims to be encountering bigfoot to prove that claim, so I'm not holding my breath that such proof will come from "Area X" or wherever this ongoing activity is allegedly happening. So far it's been at least 13 years of high bigfooty stuff happening in a part of the country where just about everyone is armed. Despite the stories there've been no bigfoots collected yet. It's difficult for me to wish bipto & co. a blanket "good luck" because I'm convinced that there is no bigfoot to collect, therefore, whatever they might be shooting at will not be a bigfoot. I can, however, wish that they be safe in the field (as I do norseman and his project) and then sit back and wait to be amazed or for the project to fizzle. I'm pretty patient about this stuff. Be safe, bipto.
WSA Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Patience, above all else, is something you need in buckets-full to stay engaged in this quest. I got all the time you need, and then some.
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