Are Hikers, Campers, And Hunters Pushing Bf To Its Limits?

[georgerm]

Just my two cents.  Here in the Northwest the Cascade Range runs from north of the Washington/Canadian Border into northern California, say 700 miles.  Wikipedia says it is 80 miles wide.  I would guess probably closer to 60 on average.  That equates to 42,000 square miles of land.  There are 640 acres in a square mile.  If my math is correct there are 26 million plus acres of mountains in the Cascade Range.   It is rugged and steep terrain, densely covered in trees and vegitation (more so on the west side) and wet and cold a good portion of the time.   

 

People, for the most part do not venture far from roads or trails.  They just don't do it.  So all any animal has to do to stay hidden is stay away from these two things.  Some people seem to think that there are people all over the Cascade Mountains when in fact, there are areas of the Cascades that have nevere been explored.  People go where the roads and trails take them.  Last time I checked the majority of the Cascades are still roadless.  Gates are being added and locked all the time, and many roads are no longer being maintained and reverting back to wilderness. 

 

An acre is the approximate size of a football field.  Imagine that covered in trees and scrub and ferns and logs and you would be hard pressed to find anything in it if it didnt want to be found.  Now times that by 26 million and have at it. 

 

I'm sorry but I don't beleive encroachment is a problem for sasquatch, at least not here anyway. 

 

 

 

Agreed that most people don't venture far from the roads. The Cascades have lots of roads and some are gated.

 

The other aerial photo posted is part of the Coast Range which is parallel to the Cascade Range and about 100 to 150 miles west of it.

 

If you look at this attached aerial photograph, it shows clear cuts and logging roads. This area is part of the Cascade Range in Oregon just west of Crescent Lake and Odell Lake. Hikers, loggers, and hunters can easily enter BF's home grounds which can have a negative effect on their abiity to survive. Remember, Smeja was road hunting in the high Cascades, East of Sacremento where he ran into BF. 

 

Would it help BF if these logging roads were blocked off?

[Guest Urkelbot]

If anything else was pushing bigfoot to its limits it would probably be black bear populations since their niches might overlap and black bears appear much more successful than bigfoot.

[Branco]

"We" represents humanity as a whole. A type specimen is a logical first step at understanding their logical first step at understanding their intelligence, eating habits, vision, hearing and sense of smell.

 

. It gives us an invaluable tool at understanding the species as a whole. Then comes scientific inquiry into habitat, population, mating so forth and so on.

 

Basically the strategy with Project Grendel is to crunch sighting data with seasonal data and to predict hot spots at certain times of the year. But we have discussed other strategies as well. But no one can "know" about their range or population density, because the sightings could include thousands of Sasquatch or a very low number that travels alot.

 

I see range and population as inversely proportional, if one goes up then the other must come down and vice versa.

No Sir; your kill club does NOT represent humanity as a whole, and that is an absolute certainty.

 

It seems to me your "Kill Club" is approaching their goal in a bass-ackward fashion. The "logical first step at understanding their intelligence, eating habits, vision, hearing and sense of smell" should come BEFORE killing one. In doing that, and first "understanding their intelligence", it just might be that you really don't care to kill one after all. And that's a good thing. (Deliberately killing one might very well put you and your members in the history books, but overall, you would not like the kind of attention you and the group would receive from "humanity as a whole".)

 

Can't figure out how you could learn much about their "their intelligence, eating habits, vision, hearing and sense of smell" from the body of one. 

 

Yes, there are many people who do know the range and population density in various specific areas of this country. It is well known to these folks that those BF that are part of family groups in the south/southeast have specific foraging areas for the seasons but their typical overall home range remains the same. They don't migrate, they just claim a lot of land.

 

I personally have never considered killing one. Have known a lot of people who claimed they would if they ever saw one. About ten or so of those folks later saw one or more. One man saw three walking across an open pasture less than one hundred yards from his deer stand. Like the rest of those ten or so, he never fired a shot. After looking at them through his rifle scope, he forgot about shooting one. Hopefully you will react the same way if you get in that situation.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Branco

[norseman]

Branco, you are way way off kilter........

 

I said this:

 

The fact of the matter is is that we just do not know. And we won't know until Biology gets involved.

 

In that sentence? "We" represents humanity.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

As far as the being pro kill? I'm painfully aware that there are many people out there who do not subscribe, so I have no illusions that "we" as in the pro kill proponents represent humanity. In fact we are a minority within a minority. Bigfoot proponents vs. skeptics and anti kill vs. pro kill.

 

As far as what we would learn from a type specimen? Did you ever dissect a frog in High School Science class? They would mine data from that carcass for years.......

 

And as far as me, having a change of heart? It's possible, anything is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. And I think that is mainly because we are completely opposed in our views about who is doing the greater good for the species.......

Edited August 20, 2013 by norseman

[georgerm]

'

If anything else was pushing bigfoot to its limits it would probably be black bear populations since their niches might overlap and black bears appear much more successful than bigfoot.

 

 

Black Bears in Oregon seem to be doing well. We just don't know how well BF is doing. If we had the money to pay biologist to study them we will find out. Norsemen wants to push to find out, and enact protection laws.  Each year that goes by, more BFs get shot. I;m on the fence when it comes to shooting one.............just don't have the heart. Again, hopefully we will capture a sick BF to start he ball rolling.

 

Back to their habitat reduction, we have the Elliot State Forest just northeast of Coos Bay that is mostly shut off from logging and building of new roads. The state wants to sell some of it to private logging companies that can log at will providing they replant. This opens up remote forest to people and has an effect on BF.

 

The private companies are mostly confined to the lower elevations.     

Edited August 20, 2013 by georgerm

[Branco]

And I think that is mainly because we are completely opposed in our views about who is doing the greater good for the species.......

And I think Bigfoot has nothing to worry about from either one of us. 

[Sunflower]

And I think Bigfoot has nothing to worry about from either one of us. 

 

 

[norseman]

And I think Bigfoot has nothing to worry about from either one of us.

Actually your wrong.

Because you and I both belong to a species that takes what we want and to heck with everything else. Especially mythical creatures......

[georgerm]

What you say is true since our expanding population spreads out into the wild with road building, pollution, and people poaching game so nothing will be left. During deer hunting season, I'll bet BF has lots of trouble stalking a deer and keeping from being shot.

[Branco]

Actually your wrong.

Because you and I both belong to a species that takes what we want and to heck with everything else. Especially mythical creatures......

Again, not everyone thinks it is necessary to try to kill one. Once you do the field work and actually learn a little bit about what they really  are, you could not rationally shoot one. Neither science nor our our government needs or wants more evidence. The situation is being handled as best it can be for the benefit of both species. Forget the rifles; just get in the woods and have fun and learn.

[Branco]

What you say is true since our expanding population spreads out into the wild with road building, pollution, and people poaching game so nothing will be left. During deer hunting season, I'll bet BF has lots of trouble stalking a deer and keeping from being shot.

Yes, we have radically altered and degraded their habitat during the last 400 years. They, like the NA's, depended on the areas along the water-ways in the mountains or deltas for survival. The destruction of their prime habitat in some areas have forced them to be concentrated in locations where they have no choice but to forage around rural farms and home sites that were developed in their original territory. (And some people can't understand how are why habituation cases occur. Mutual habituation?)

 

Over many years I have personally spoken to many dozens of hunters in several states that have seen these creatures while they were deer hunting, usually with high powered rifles with scopes. After seeing the animals - sometimes through their rifle scopes - not a single one of these deer hunters even considered shooting the animal they saw. Their reasons were either that the animal looked too much like a human, even though they could see it was not a "human", or; they said they would not shoot it because they thought the rifle they had was too small for an animal that size, or they said they were shaking so bad they couldn't see to shoot..

 

In the south and southeastern states, there have been numerous instances in which these creatures have been shot or shot at. Most of the shooting occurred at night around rural homes or by hunter hunting illegally with spotlights. I know of several cases where law enforcement officers have shot, or shot at, one of the creatures while investigating "prowler" calls around rural and small community home sites.

 

Today, with a hot and muggy 90+ degrees, I carried about 40 gallons of pears to and area along a river where I know there are at least five of the creatures have been foraging in for many years. I had not been on the property for a couple of months. I literally became sick at my stomach when I saw that the gate to the property was open and the old river road was beat down by log truck tires. A mile and one half down river I could hear the sound of loggers cutting one of the last old-growth stands of oak, holly, maple and hickory on that stretch of river. They were cutting less than a mile from the location I put out the pears. Depressing.

[Sunflower]

Crap, I hate to hear that about the loggers. Hopefully they will get in and get out so that the hairy guys can live in peace.

[MIB]

Well, hmmm.  I'm going to throw out a counter possibility for consideration.

 

We've got reports of bigfoot coming in to gun shots to swipe dead deer, etc. 

 

I've observed deer and elk coming into active clear cuts at night when the saws and yarders are shut down.   They come in to get at the fresh green stuff that used to be 40 feet up that is now at ground level. 

 

So given the noise of logging to make it clear where it's happening and the draw of additional herbivores coming in at night, I'd expect that while the big guys might move back into heavier cover during the day, they're at least as likely to be drawn to logging as scared by it because it provides food.   There are a handful of reports of loggers, while logging, seeing bigfoots in the clearcut, if not the one they're in, one within sight.

 

The pieces are there, have been there.  Put 'em together.

 

You have to decide for yourself whether they fit where you're at.   I'm above 50/50 for my area.

Edited August 23, 2013 by MIB

[Guest DWA]

You know, from a scientific and purely sustainable standpoint, there is a lot to be said for protecting core reserves for a putative species for which a ton of evidence exists, simply because protecting that species automatically protects the habitat of everything else in that reserve.

 

But of course, being not significantly more intelligent than deer, we're pretty hellbent on eating ourselves out of house and home before we've even figured out half of what shares it with us.

[Guest DWA]

Well, hmmm.  I'm going to throw out a counter possibility for consideration.

 

We've got reports of bigfoot coming in to gun shots to swipe dead deer, etc. 

 

I've observed deer and elk coming into active clear cuts at night when the saws and yarders are shut down.   They come in to get at the fresh green stuff that used to be 40 feet up that is now at ground level. 

 

So given the noise of logging to make it clear where it's happening and the draw of additional herbivores coming in at night, I'd expect that while the big guys might move back into heavier cover during the day, they're at least as likely to be drawn to logging as scared by it because it provides food.   There are a handful of reports of loggers, while logging, seeing bigfoots in the clearcut, if not the one they're in, one within sight.

 

The pieces are there, have been there.  Put 'em together.

 

You have to decide for yourself whether they fit where you're at.   I'm above 50/50 for my area.

 

None of what you're saying, MIB, is at odds with observations of known animals.  Grizzlies are attracted - among other things -  by the sound of gunshots and the smell of coffee (associated with food). 

 

I was just as Sequoia and Yosemite National Parks in CA.  Want to go for a hike?  First, take all your food out of your car, and put it in this bearproof container.  Bears in the Sierra have learned to associate cars (and trash and coolers and appropriate packaging) with food, and will tear a car up - seen any photos of this?  Dynamite couldn't do better - to get at not only what they smell, but what they see in the car. 

 

This is a simple extension of what animals are doing all the time.  When Black Vultures see Turkey Vultures circling, they know it's dinner time.  TVs have better noses by far, so they get there first, but are less aggressive.  The BVs know they're gonna get theirs.  Same with bears and coyotes watching vultures and ravens.  The food's now just coming by a different delivery system with different indicators.

 

A sizable percentage of sasquatch sightings are by outdoor workers, working outdoors.  While a sasquatch may not go, hmmmm, Fiskars axe, a logger!, you can bet that, in various ways, the work we do in the woods generates opportunities.  And bigfoot isn't the only one that will take advantage.