N A W A C - Field Study Discussion (2)

[dmaker]

You sound like a logging industry tool. 

We're allowed to call people tools?   Cool.  

[Guest]

I said he sounded like one, that he was one. 

[dmaker]

You sound like a marketing tool.

 

Something like that?

[salubrious]

I have observed some of Plum Creek's clearcuts in LeFlore county and they appear to have left nursery trees behind and there were some areas, mainly on mountain faces, they couldn't get to and those are still intact. Clearcutting has been proven to be a boon for wildlife as the stagnation of mature forest is eliminated by a rejuvenation of habitat that would otherwise only have been created via wildfire.

 

It is true that a different habitat appears. But there is no such thing as 'stagnation of mature forest'; thats some sort of myth or made-up story. It takes hundreds of years to create primary growth forests and there are very few of them left in the US. Most of it is secondary growth due to logging decades ago.

 

We don't have to look very far to see how humans have altered the ecology. There are numerous examples all over the country, and none for the better of wildlife in general, just species that are quickly able to adapt to the new.

[norseman]

You sound like a logging industry tool.

No he is right in certain settings, clear cutting is a win for some species with increased browse and a loss for others, such as woodland caribou.

They stay high in winter eating lichen, if you clear cut the trees is becomes a barren wasteland for them in deep snow.

It is true that a different habitat appears. But there is no such thing as 'stagnation of mature forest'; thats some sort of myth or made-up story. It takes hundreds of years to create primary growth forests and there are very few of them left in the US. Most of it is secondary growth due to logging decades ago.

We don't have to look very far to see how humans have altered the ecology. There are numerous examples all over the country, and none for the better of wildlife in general, just species that are quickly able to adapt to the new.

Stagnation if your an ungulate that likes to eat grass, then yes.

[Yuchi1]

You sound like a logging industry tool. 

 

And, you sound like a tree hugger wannabe.

 

First, in that part of the country (Kiamichi mountains) as well as many others, the pine tree is a native tree and outnumbers food (i.e., acorn) producing trees in many areas because of one primary reason, the soil is too rocky and poor to sustain widespread growth of desirable food trees such as white oak, pecan and hickory, to name a few.

 

When an area down there is clear cut (and granted, I've only observed a few thousand acres) there are often "nursery trees" left standing, as they were on the +/- 7,000 acres I hunt down there. And for those posters that apparently do not understand...those are mature trees left standing to naturally re-seed the adjacent area because the soil is either/or too rocky/rough for mechanical re-seeding with commercially grown seedlings.  One result is a natural dispersement (as opposed to mechanical rows) of the new trees in the area around the "mother tree".

 

Prior to clear cutting, the canopy blocks out the sunlight necessary for establishment and growth of the naturally occuring forbs/plants that prey species thrive upon (as they used to when naturally occuring wildfire periodically de-forested that region) plus the trees took most of the available moisture for such as well.  Clear cutting, thus opened up the area to sunlight and available moisture for this type of flora and the prey species migrate into it for both food and eventually, cover.

 

While I cannot speak for all clear-cutting operations, countrywide, I do know what has been observed in the areas of LeFlore, McCurtain & Pushmata counties in SE Oklahoma that I've hunted for the past 13 seasons. The areas with the thinnest deer herd was noted include the McCurtain county Wilderness Area, where logging/vehicular traffic isn't allowed.

 

And, no, am not speaking out of my orifice...nor dressing up like some Seal Team Six wannabe either.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Yuchi1

[Yuchi1]

Capping onto the previous post, there was an area on one of our leases known as "rough canyon" that has a year-round branch coming out of the canyon wall at ~1700' elevation and runs down the mountain eventually merging into the Kiamichi river a few miles NNW from the origin. It has a stand of white oak that usually produce a good crop of acorns probably because of the constant moisture source as this area was one of the few that had such during the recent drought. The deer go "ape" over these acorns in the early fall when they're dropping.  Problem is, most all of the acorns "go bad" through decomposition in a relatively short time (~60 days) and al that is left in rough canyon is boulders and trees with no other forage.  That's when the "mountain bucks" move down to the river areas where there is open ground (such as through clear-cutting) to feed on the plant life that abound under such conditions. 

 

The upshot being (in this example) for that location, the main food source exists for only ~16% of the year leaving the other 84% of the time for the animals to either starve or go elsewhere.  Rough canyon is one of the areas that has never been clearcut as the name implies the obvious.  IMO, anyone that spends any significant amount of time in that region should know this situation exists in most of the other places besides the one just described.

[WV FOOTER]

               MOD STATEMENT

            The Name Calling Stops Right Now.

Any further issues in this topic will be dealt with as Failure to follow a Staff Directive, along with any violations.
                  

[Guest UPs]

Small clear cuts are beneficial to many species as it provides new growth for food and also cover is close by. I love hunting these transition areas, but these huge clear cuts do not seem to have the same benefits. The latest Plum Creek cut is just aweful....they even clear cut the hardwoods which I have never seen before in my area. No replant yet and I have yet to see them replant a clear cut. They just cut every single tree and then leave it alone or maybe sell parcels (I have heard they are for sale, but no signs anywhere yet). When Mead was actually managing the forests, it was obvious they were managing for the future, no so with Plum Creek.

I met with the individual logger cutting the area and he told me they were going to select cut the hardwoods which is a solid technique for managing future timber. When they were done, there wasn't a tree left anywhere within the cut. From what I have heard about them, that shouldn't have surprised me, but it did. There was a select cut done nicely a little further east, but it had different boundary markings that indicated to me it was a different landowner.

I checked their website to see if they owned any land in SE OK and it doesn't look like it so you guys are dealing with another slash outfit. I would check your platt book and see who owns that cut area and if they own anymore around you. This could give you an idea of what may happen in the near future. I really feel for your group and I know how you felt the first time that you saw it. Most logging has little adverse affect on the forests and logging can be very beneficial, but it would be hard to convince me these huge clear cuts are good for anything or anyone. Done with my rant, wishing you success Bipto.

[NCBFr]

Here is my problem with that. We can certainly assume that squatch has anatomical differences to us based on observation. Why isn't this being picked up in the DNA? We have mapped the human and neanderthal genome. We can discern differences in both homo species.

So why do squatch samples come back as homo sapien? I'm not being a jerk but this makes no sense to me

 

I have read just as many if not more reports that the samples come back as "Unknown Primate". 

 

Without a type species, isnt it impossible to 100% identify a DNA sample?

[NCBFr]

I am conflicted on the whole forest issue as I both like my toilet paper and have some Ga. pine land that is 2nd or 3rd generation pulpwood and paid for my college education.  However, I also love my old growth forest for everything unique that they contains.  Can't we just have it both ways with national parks and managed forests?  It is a big country after all.   However, with that said, I don't think we must go crazy protecting every different phylum of tadpole, warbler, or insect. Call me a tool of business, you would probably be correct.

[norseman]

I have read just as many if not more reports that the samples come back as "Unknown Primate".

Without a type species, isnt it impossible to 100% identify a DNA sample?

I know zero about DNA, but I have read that a DNA sample can be placed on the tree of life.

In the media section I posted a nat geo video in which Sykes has a Yeti sample that has stumped him. So evidently it does happen, and this is why we a type specimen. I don't trust DNA much because I don't understand it and it's track record seems to be poor in this field. A body on a slab is definitive proof, even a portion of a body is. Krantz said the skull/head is best followed by a foot and then a hand.

[Guest]

For those keeping score, we've now documented around eight tree breaks in the area immediately surrounding where we stay, including one from today. When I say "tree break" I don't mean a branch or a sapling. I mean whole, fully mature trees. We discuss one of these events for which I was present on the last BFS (episode 60). There was another that night we heard not too far off, though it sounded old and rotted. There was one during the week before. There have three this week and a couple sprinkled around the other teams. Not all the journals are edited yet so eight is an estimate but's it's not far off (if it's off). 

 

Today's was interesting because, unlike those I was present to experience, the tree involved was heathy and green. It stood about 60 yards away from the cabin and was about 50-60' tall with a diameter of 20-24". It was broken off about two feet above the ground. The wood was fresh and yellow and wet and showed no signs of disease or damage. It's breaking sounded like a gunshot as it snapped and fell. After the tree started to fall, the member present heard another thudding secondary impact we suspect was an ape falling out of the tree. This is exactly what I experienced a few weeks ago. 

 

Why all these trees are being brought down can only be speculated upon. Is it a new escalation of aggression? Is it a new favorite tactic to rile us up so we put on a show for them? Is this the sign of a new ape in the area or a newly ascended juvenile looking to make a name for himself? Impossible to say. We have documented the occasional tree break and fall in the past, but they were far less numerous and far apart from one another. All I know for sure is trees are being brought down purposefully and systematically by animals of incredible weight and/or impressive strength on a fairly regular basis. If anything, the events are accelerating. 

[Guest DWA]

The problem with a DNA sample the provenance of which can't be identified is that it will always be open to question.

 

A sample can be typed back to the source species if a type specimen is on file (how they know that this guy lifted your stereo system; he's the Homo sapiens whose blood was below the broken window).  No type specimen...then what is this...?

 

Now, a DNA sample that looks nothing like anything known except that it's a primate can raise significant interest ...if it's taken seriously.  Which it likely, without a body, won't be for something mainstream science thinks about the way it does this.  They're too deeply invested in what they think to respond to anything other than either a body or a part of one that indisputably belongs to no known species.

Edited June 20, 2014 by DWA

[Yuchi1]

Small clear cuts are beneficial to many species as it provides new growth for food and also cover is close by. I love hunting these transition areas, but these huge clear cuts do not seem to have the same benefits. The latest Plum Creek cut is just aweful....they even clear cut the hardwoods which I have never seen before in my area. No replant yet and I have yet to see them replant a clear cut. They just cut every single tree and then leave it alone or maybe sell parcels (I have heard they are for sale, but no signs anywhere yet). When Mead was actually managing the forests, it was obvious they were managing for the future, no so with Plum Creek.

I met with the individual logger cutting the area and he told me they were going to select cut the hardwoods which is a solid technique for managing future timber. When they were done, there wasn't a tree left anywhere within the cut. From what I have heard about them, that shouldn't have surprised me, but it did. There was a select cut done nicely a little further east, but it had different boundary markings that indicated to me it was a different landowner.

I checked their website to see if they owned any land in SE OK and it doesn't look like it so you guys are dealing with another slash outfit. I would check your platt book and see who owns that cut area and if they own anymore around you. This could give you an idea of what may happen in the near future. I really feel for your group and I know how you felt the first time that you saw it. Most logging has little adverse affect on the forests and logging can be very beneficial, but it would be hard to convince me these huge clear cuts are good for anything or anyone. Done with my rant, wishing you success Bipto.

 

Here is what their website says: http://www.plumcreek.com/about/our-land-working-forests

For those keeping score, we've now documented around eight tree breaks in the area immediately surrounding where we stay, including one from today. When I say "tree break" I don't mean a branch or a sapling. I mean whole, fully mature trees. We discuss one of these events for which I was present on the last BFS (episode 60). There was another that night we heard not too far off, though it sounded old and rotted. There was one during the week before. There have three this week and a couple sprinkled around the other teams. Not all the journals are edited yet so eight is an estimate but's it's not far off (if it's off). 

 

Today's was interesting because, unlike those I was present to experience, the tree involved was heathy and green. It stood about 60 yards away from the cabin and was about 50-60' tall with a diameter of 20-24". It was broken off about two feet above the ground. The wood was fresh and yellow and wet and showed no signs of disease or damage. It's breaking sounded like a gunshot as it snapped and fell. After the tree started to fall, the member present heard another thudding secondary impact we suspect was an ape falling out of the tree. This is exactly what I experienced a few weeks ago. 

 

Why all these trees are being brought down can only be speculated upon. Is it a new escalation of aggression? Is it a new favorite tactic to rile us up so we put on a show for them? Is this the sign of a new ape in the area or a newly ascended juvenile looking to make a name for himself? Impossible to say. We have documented the occasional tree break and fall in the past, but they were far less numerous and far apart from one another. All I know for sure is trees are being brought down purposefully and systematically by animals of incredible weight and/or impressive strength on a fairly regular basis. If anything, the events are accelerating. 

 

The aggressive behavior could be some form of a declaration of war for shooting one of their own.  Wouldn't recommend travelling alone  in the  timber as someone might end up like a tree.  Sounds like this has been building for a time?