N A W A C - Field Study Discussion (2)

[Guest]

This thread should really be focused on what the people in the field are experiencing, right?

 

I'm going to do everything in my power to ignore claims of previous DNA anything (since there's no verifiable, reputable, peer-accepted work of any kind WRT to bigfoot DNA) and industry talking points about how great monoculture forests are. I'm not here to save the world. Increasingly, I can't remember why, exactly, I am here...

[Guest DWA]

YOU'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT X.  SNAP OUT OF IT, MAN...!

 

I'm never gonna be in your shoes; durn shame.  I'd just love to know - maybe I wouldn't - what precisely it's like to have people telling me there's no way that real mundane world stuff that is happening right in front of me can't, just CAN'T BE.

[Guest]

One has to account for the tree hitting the ground as one of the impacts and potentially responsible for secondary impacts. It becomes tough to imagine what size of bigfoot it would take to bring down mature tree's even if it could hold it's body out perpendicular to the trunk at a high enough elevation to achieve that kind of leverage. Makes for a comical image though.

 

In the case of the tree I saw fall down, I also saw something large and dark fall through the foliage, wait about three seconds, then run off at high speed. It fell into heavy brush so I heard and felt the impact and then saw a quick flash of grayish colored critter fly off like the wind.

Secondary impacts could be from the tree that's fallen or other parts of trees it's taken out on the way down or it could be the animal responsible for the break. In the case of the one I saw, it was undoubtedly the animal. 

[Guest zenmonkey]

I'm going to do everything in my power to ignore claims of previous DNA anything (since there's no verifiable, reputable, peer-accepted work of any kind WRT to bigfoot DNA) and industry talking points about how great monoculture forests are. I'm not here to save the world. Increasingly, I can't remember why, exactly, I am here...

Yes well said easy to get caught up in the heat of the internet battle are you driving down here bipto or do you fly? I realize that has nothjbg to do with bf just curious

[Guest]

Ya I think I agree. I just don't see them spending much time in trees of course this is just my internet opinion. If bipto and someone like Kathy strain hypothesize they spend some time in trees. Well then that's well worth looking into.

 

We've seen them in trees. As I said, we previously thought it was only smaller, younger ones as the thing I saw jump from one tree to another couldn't have weighed more than 100 pounds or so and that's typically what we've seen, but we have multiple accounts now from our operations in X of apes in trees. We're not speculating, we've caught them in the act. The major change this year is it appears as though larger animals might also be up in trees and literally leveraging their mass to bring them down. 

Um, just for the record, those aren't feet.  Those are casts of tracks.  Which seem to show a heck of a lot more flexibility than our feet do, and we aren't the worst species at climbing trees.

 

Exactly. 

[Drew]

I believe that we are going down a dead end road with the tree thing.

 

Climbing a tree would only be beneficial to a 700 pound ape, if, A. There was ample food supply up in the tree  and B. It provided an easy escape from a potential threat.

 

Regarding A. Are there any mast trees in the area that require climbing to reach the food supply? Deer find plenty of acorns for example, on the ground.

 

Regarding B. Are there trees with large limbs, close enough together to allow flight to the next tree over and the next tree after that?  Could those limbs support a 700 pound creature stepping off the end of one branch and onto the end of another branch?

 

I think B is the conversation stopper.  Why would an elusive, impossible to document creature, put itself in a position where it would be unable to escape should a pack of dogs, or a hunter with a gun discover it in a tree?  We can see from the paper I posted above that large trees do not grow close to each other, they block out each other's light.  An Oak Tree might touch another oak tree, but the branches out at the ends are typically quite brittle and not strong enough to hold a 700 pound creature.

[Guest]

I will hafta look up for now on. 

 

I'd just love to know - maybe I wouldn't - what precisely it's like to have people telling me there's no way that real mundane world stuff that is happening right in front of me can't, just CAN'T BE.

 

I don't require anyone to accept at face value what I'm saying we've observed and experienced. They just shouldn't expect me to expend much energy trying to rebut their disbelief. Life is too short. I would do well to remember that myself.

 

I totally understand how incredible X is and our experiences there and how uncomfortable what we're experiencing must be to people of a certain mental perspective. 

are you driving down here bipto or do you fly?

 

I take too much crap with me to fly.

[dmaker]

The problem with a DNA sample the provenance of which can't be identified is that it will always be open to question.

 

A sample can be typed back to the source species if a type specimen is on file (how they know that this guy lifted your stereo system; he's the Homo sapiens whose blood was below the broken window).  No type specimen...then what is this...?

 

Now, a DNA sample that looks nothing like anything known except that it's a primate can raise significant interest ...if it's taken seriously.  Which it likely, without a body, won't be for something mainstream science thinks about the way it does this.  They're too deeply invested in what they think to respond to anything other than either a body or a part of one that indisputably belongs to no known species.

But you have claimed in another thread that this precise event has already happened multiple times. I am confused because you are here describing it only in the hypothetical.

 

Care to explain?

[Guest]

Bipto, what's your take on this?

http://bigfootforums.com/index.php/topic/36042-tree-break/

 

Tree breaks of any kind are so hard to diagnose. Trees break all the time of their own accord in ways that sometimes look apish. Superficially, that looks like the two trees that have been brought down in my presence (high break) but the two I documented were both diseased. Another difference is we're mostly dealing with hardwoods in X and that's a pine (for what that's worth). I would say it's consistent with what we've experienced and investigated. Could be ape-related. 

[Guest]

Climbing a tree would only be beneficial to a 700 pound ape, if, A. There was ample food supply up in the tree  and B. It provided an easy escape from a potential threat.

 

You're thinking like a human. One reason to climb a tree would be food. There are lots of nut trees in X so they could be going up for those, but they also fall to the ground in ample numbers and could be foraged more easily. Another reason would be for safety. The young would be safer from predatory threats (probably only cougar though maybe coyotes). They appear to have ample ability to travel via trees, as well. Another reason to be in a tree is perspective. It's a tactically superior position if you're looking for prey or threats or what have you. Finally, and perhaps most importantly for the purposes of our observations, climbing a tree makes them easier to bring down in some kind of display (thanks to leverage and physics). For them, that could be just as important as any of the previous reasons. 

 

Could those limbs support a 700 pound creature stepping off the end of one branch and onto the end of another branch?

 

Assuming they all do that. The younger, smaller animals leap from from tree to tree like giant squirrels. The larger ones might only go up and then come down. A hardwood branch at the trunk would have no problem supporting many hundreds of pounds of weight. 

 

 

Why would an elusive, impossible to document creature, put itself in a position where it would be unable to escape should a pack of dogs, or a hunter with a gun discover it in a tree?  

 

Why would an elusive creature throw hundreds of rocks over the course of several months at a same group of people or creep as closely as possible into their camp or slap the sides of their cabin of vocalize or make a wood knock or do any of those things? They're not one-dimensional. Since they're a higher primate, they have a multitude of motivations behind their actions.

Also, you assume wood apes are thinking about hunters with guns (being able to kill or injure from a great distance – IOW, a understanding of gun technology) packs of dogs (which, besides coyotes, they probably have zero experience with) or any other logic-driven thought process. Apes often show little ability to control their emotional reactions to stimuli. It could be the case here that an animal in their troupe is making displays against what you or I (or maybe even other apes) would consider better judgement. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by bipto

[Drew]

I don't think that bringing down a 24" 100' tall tree, from the higher branches would have any evolutionary benefit.

 

The individuals that were predisposed to do that would not pass on their genes as regularly as the ones that pushed over dead trees from the ground.

[Guest DWA]

I believe that we are going down a dead end road with the tree thing.

 

Climbing a tree would only be beneficial to a 700 pound ape, if, A. There was ample food supply up in the tree  and B. It provided an easy escape from a potential threat.

 

Regarding A. Are there any mast trees in the area that require climbing to reach the food supply? Deer find plenty of acorns for example, on the ground.

 

Regarding B. Are there trees with large limbs, close enough together to allow flight to the next tree over and the next tree after that?  Could those limbs support a 700 pound creature stepping off the end of one branch and onto the end of another branch?

 

I think B is the conversation stopper.  Why would an elusive, impossible to document creature, put itself in a position where it would be unable to escape should a pack of dogs, or a hunter with a gun discover it in a tree?  We can see from the paper I posted above that large trees do not grow close to each other, they block out each other's light.  An Oak Tree might touch another oak tree, but the branches out at the ends are typically quite brittle and not strong enough to hold a 700 pound creature.

I just wanted to quote this to show what a veritable pile of untested assumptions looks like.

 

Particularly that "elusive, virtually impossible to document."  First, it's our ignorance that feeds the "elusive" more than anything else, and second, rules of engagement of the sort that don't apply so much during deer season - combined with something for which the hunting book hasn't been written, much less read, yet - make bagging one exponentially more difficult.

[Guest]

The individuals that were predisposed to do that would not pass on their genes as regularly as the ones that pushed over dead trees from the ground.

 

I'll be sure to pass that along to them next time I'm down there. 

[Drew]

I suppose if you think a 700 pound creature jumped 45 feet and survived you can probably explain anything to them.

 

[Guest DWA]

^^^What Happens When Apes Drive