Guest DWA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 In my world bigfoot is not the default answer for everything. If an animal were even capable of this event I would compile a list of those animals that might be in that area and proceed with ruling them out before I even considered something like a "wood ape" as the answer. You prefer to start at bigfoot and then stop looking? In your world, you have a pat answer for everything, cemented by your not having been there. You see that's the problem, right? So, compile your list. I wanna see this. [crickets...deafening]
dmaker Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) You weren't there either. I have doubts that any animal likely to be there is capable of snapping a two foot diameter oak at the base. So my list is: zero The only large mammals that I could even imagine being high up in a tree and are native to OK would be black bear, brown bear or cougar. I don't believe necessarily that one of them could have done it, but that would be a good place to start. Edited June 20, 2014 by dmaker
WSA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 I'm waiting on the list too. It is a short one, so it shouldn't be a long wait. If you seriously have theories that fit this, I'm open. I have no default setting at all. I am constantly surprised and delighted by what animals do, and I keep a large repetoire of "go to" behaviors I know about. This one? It is a mystery that awaits cogent theories. So we're taking the exit ramp, are we? Thanks for letting me know.
Guest DWA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) ...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand no list. Stunned? Oh hardly. You weren't there either. I have doubts that any animal likely to be there is capable of snapping a two foot diameter oak at the base. So my list is: zero While we're on pat answers. Got it ALL figured out. Must be...um...awfully confining in there. So here's what bipto is supposed to do: deny what his eyes clearly told him. Man you got the answer every time doncha. Edited June 20, 2014 by DWA
dmaker Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Like I said, I don't really believe that an animal could do what was described. But if pressed for a list I would offer: black bear brown bear cougar Edited June 20, 2014 by dmaker
Yuchi1 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Did I? "I saw the tree come down, I saw something large fall separately through the foliage and land heavily on the ground, I saw something grayish move rapidly away all from a distance of about 50 yards up a slope. " That area is rife with black bear (up to 400 lbs.) and we had to take the deer feeders (just over the top from them) off the mountain as the bears were wrecking them every few days.
WSA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Never heard/saw a brown bear climb a tree as high as the one described, so that is a non-starter. Oh, and they don't exist in OK. Cougar? That would be a truly unique and heretofore unheard of behavior, even if we could make the leap to an animal that small breaking a tree this big. I'd put the probability somewhere in the 3-5% chance range, and I'm being generous. Black Bear is the only thing on the list that has any reasonable chance of explaining it....but then, we have the rest of the event to explain, and "bear with thumbs" just is not really doing it for me.
Yuchi1 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Never heard/saw a brown bear climb a tree as high as the one described, so that is a non-starter. Oh, and they don't exist in OK. Cougar? That would be a truly unique and heretofore unheard of behavior, even if we could make the leap to an animal that small breaking a tree this big. I'd put the probability somewhere in the 3-5% chance range, and I'm being generous. Black Bear is the only thing on the list that has any reasonable chance of explaining it....but then, we have the rest of the event to explain, and "bear with thumbs" just is not really doing it for me. http://www.mcalesternews.com/localsports/x699433159/Savanna-man-kills-675-pound-black-bear Some big bear in those mountains....
Guest Rex Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 http://www.mcalesternews.com/localsports/x699433159/Savanna-man-kills-675-pound-black-bear Some big bear in those mountains.... Well that one ain't breaking anything anymore...
WSA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Big bear most places in this country now Yuchi. In my home grounds, a 400 pounder is getting fairly frequent. Granted, 600 lbs + is a real outlier, holy cow. A bear that big, having only claws to shimmy with ain't likely to get to the top of a tree that high, even if it had a reason. Then we have the full event as Bipto described it. Poor bears get saddled with just about any unexplained occurrence out there, but I don't think they need cop to this rap. Edited June 20, 2014 by WSA
Drew Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Which formula did your engineer use? I found this example of an actual tree pull test on a large tree to see when it would break at the trunk. The highest published value is 1219 kN · m for a 25 m high tree that was assumed to have a wind force of 127 kN acting on a canopy at 9.6 m height (Mattheck and Bethge, 2000⇓). This calculation was an estimate based on a theoretical analysis of a large tree and the wind forces needed to break the outer fibers of the trunk. This is the equivalent of 269000 lbF It is ridiculous to think a 700 lb animal could generate this kind of force. Think about a tree with a canopy that is catching 60 mph winds, and how much more force that trunk would have to be able to with stand, than a 700 pound ape swaying back and forth. http://www.amjbot.org/content/93/10/1522.full#F9
Yuchi1 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Well that one ain't breaking anything anymore... Maybe his twin?
WSA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 O.K. Drew, I'm all ears: What broke that tree? Just your working theory will suffice.
Drew Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) A wind gust June 6 knocked it over so it was held up by a weaker tree, and the weaker tree finally gave away on June 19th. A 50 MPH gust would generate far more horizontal force than a 700 lb ape man could. Also, just because a tree looks healthy after it is broken, does not mean that during an even bigger storm earlier in the year, it didn't get severely damaged, and was waiting for just the right force vectors to finish it off. Edited June 20, 2014 by Drew
WSA Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) And the other observations Bipto made? We just sweep those under the rug to fit your theory? Namely, the tree whipped back and forth rapidly before falling, a rock was lobbed at them before it happened and an object hit the ground and scurried off after the tree broke....what as to those? Edited June 20, 2014 by WSA
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