Drew Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Fatigue of the branch that was holding up the tree as it leaned against another tree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Yeah, but the description was the tree moving to and fro before falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 We've already established that a 700 pound creature couldn't move the trunk of a 24" diameter tree. 200000 pounds of force a tree could withstand in 50 mph winds the week before, but a 700 pound apeman could knock it over by some miracle hula dance, generating dynamic forces exceeding that of the wind in canopy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) I carry no brief for the apeman here Drew, but I don't think we've proven what a tree does under ever increasing reciprocal loads, regardless of the size, but no matter. Put that to the side. What could account for dropping this tree in the manner described? Wind was not blowing other trees, as has been emphasized previously. So......? Edited June 24, 2014 by WSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuchi1 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Growing up in north Alabama on the family compound, there is a ~5 acre plot of what we kids referred to as the woodslot sitting between Grandparents' home and our place. It had ~60 hardwoods (mostly oak) on it with the largest (oak) being ~70" in diameter as many were approaching ~100 years of age. Today, time and the elements have taken their toll and last time I was at the homeplace, there were ~23 of these giants left. Lightning strikes probably accounted for the majority of the events that caused their demise however, I do recall three of them toppling over during windstorms of ~70MPH+ velocity. All three were felled with the rootwad coming out of the ground and when we cut them up, each had significant "heart rot", a common condition with mature oaks. Hunting the Kiamichi mountains over the past 12 seasons, I have noted many oaks toppled over in similar fashion and it isn't surprising considering how shallow and poor the soil base is in many locations down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) That sounds like an excellent place to grow up. What county? Edited June 24, 2014 by WSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotter Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 We've already established that a 700 pound creature couldn't move the trunk of a 24" diameter tree. 200000 pounds of force a tree could withstand in 50 mph winds the week before, but a 700 pound apeman could knock it over by some miracle hula dance, generating dynamic forces exceeding that of the wind in canopy? Drew - do you feel the tractor in the vid that Stan posted was pulling at over 200,000 of force? Best case scenario there was 50,000 of force applied to the tree to make it topple. (per the specs on the 440 in the video, with a pulley system with an MA of 2 the cable used is rated to 25k lbs). That's being generous. When considering the ****** block in the pic, I would say it was rated about 20k lbs and it did not fail.....so perhaps the force was even less than 20k? That is being generous as well. Take into account the angle of the load and you are even less than that. So, something ain't jiving there. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Of course to be fair too....a couple of those trees had a double-leader crotch, the steeper the angle of which, the weaker it will be. Not to say this couldn't have been the case with the NAWAC's tree as well. We'll just not be able to tell much without more information about that tree. (My entire contribution to this thread might ultimately just be about me wanting to talk more about trees in general, lol. Trees are one of my favorite subjects, and wood the second favorite. Still, I feel we are not straying too far from the topic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salubrious Posted June 24, 2014 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 How are you going to get a 700 pound volunteer to test the probability that they could survive a 45 foot fall by leaping off of the tree at the last second, and land on a soft spot, without getting clobbered by a canopy full of 4-12" diameter branches falling all a about? You don't know that a 45 foot fall occurred. What we do know if the testimony is to be taken on its face is that something dropped to the ground and ran off. We've already established that a 700 pound creature couldn't move the trunk of a 24" diameter tree. The way you 'drew' the scenario, if you will pardon the expression you did not seem to allow for the idea that the 700 pounds may have found a means of oscillating from one side to the other at the resonant frequency of the tree trunk. Nicola Tesla is famous for having caused an earthquake in Manhattan that knocked out a good number of windows and created other disturbances. It was an accident- he was trying to find the resonant frequency of the foundation of his building, but accidentally discovered the resonant frequency of the bedrock beneath instead. We rely on resonance all the time in the execution of radio; its not that hard to sort out what the right timing would be (try it some time) to maximize the sway in a tree. The principle of resonance allows a very small amount of energy to cause a lot to happen. Now imagine a bit of coordination from a second individual... from what I have seen of them BF are considerably more powerful than humans so what we think may or may not be possible might be a bit of arrogance on our part. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Today, time and the elements have taken their toll and last time I was at the homeplace, there were ~23 of these giants left Tell them to cut them now Yuchi1, I've never seen Oak this high in price. Better yet, wait till August, veneer buyers like to wait out June and July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatchy McSquatch Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) A deciduous tree of that size can fall for any number of reasons. WSA listed some and then laughed at himself. Feel free to discount my experience as a an arborist. Discount my 15+ years in the logging/outdoors industry and I can tell you very readily: Trees die and fall down everyday. Knowledge of holding wood drops a tree where you want it. Right where you want it everytime. It's why we're Professionals, It's why we pay insurance, and it's why I get to have an Opinion on this. Giant undocumented hominids leaping from branch to branch? not so much. But Please go with the Flow... It Must be MonKeY. As for the grey thingy: Bark, raccoon or caught up in the moment. (When it boils down to it, it's a third-hand account of evidence that was not properly documented in the first place.) Edited June 25, 2014 by Squatchy McSquatch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuchi1 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 That sounds like an excellent place to grow up. What county? Lauderdale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (When it boils down to it, it's a third-hand account of evidence that was not properly documented in the first place.) It may have been properly documented, perhaps he just didn't share said documentation with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I respect tree knowledge Squatchy...most come by the experience the hard way, and it is an extremely dangerous field to be experienced in. (I've got a surgery and a scar to testify to that...splitting wedge fragment I caught below the knee...cheap lesson) I'm just waiting to get more information on this incidenet, if it is avaiable. And no, it doesn't have to be a monkey in my book. It just has to be something, even if that something is: We just are not able to say. Great area of the state Yuchi. My work used to take me to the Shoals area frequently, and I miss that. Limestone County, along the Elk is another area up N. I am fond of, and used to hunt. The tornadoes of a couple of years ago really trashed Athens and the vicinity, so I'm expecting the woods are fairly tangled up, and will be for a long while. The flats outside of town, near Brown's Ferry, looked liked they'd been carpet bombed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Up here in Ontario we have red oak and white (burr) oak. Both species have dense wood of course, typical to hardwoods, and you never see them snapped off like you do with poplar and pine after a weather event. Oak typically blow over with the root mass attached or if they die, they stand for years and years eventually falling apart from the top down. There is nothing that can snap off a two ft. diameter oak at the base. We shouldn't even be talking about the possibility. t. Edited June 25, 2014 by Terry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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