2015 The State Of Sasquatch Science

[Guest DWA]

 I'll say it again that to ascribe extreme cold survivability to apes lacking technology makes little sense.  

 

Unless the evidences says hey bro, it's happening.  You've already lost this argument.  Never mind that there's no basis for the statement.  Just about every other kind of animal has cold-whether representatives (monkeys included).  Why would apes be the sole exception?  Um, too smart?  Apparently not.  OK, I'll stop now...

 

Exactly who are our extreme cold enduring ancestors?   

 

Exactly how is this question relevant?  From a scientific standpoint, it isn't.  A scientist isn't even asking it.  A scientist is always asking, um, what does the evidence say?  OK, for most topics.  But scientists take off their scientist hats and replace them with foil knowledge-deflector beanies for this one.

[SWWASAS]

Since the ice age 650,000 years ago lasted 50,000 years, nearly every mountain of any elevation in North America, Asia, and Europe was heavily glaciated. The polar ice caps extended well into the plains of the US mid West and covered much of Europe. That had to force any species to adapt or move to the few temperate zones near the moderating effects of open ocean waters. That would include apes and humans on any continents they lived on. If they exist now they managed to survive that and other ice ages. Another factor of the ice ages was that a good percentage of the atmospheric water was tied up in thick extensive polar ice caps and glaciers world wide. Some of the low land temperate jungle type climate zones today were very dry areas then because of all the water tied up in the thick polar ice caps and glaciers. Dramatic climate changes accompanied these ice age periods. Normal ocean currents that distributed warm tropical waters to Northern latitudes stopped, blocked by ocean ice. Weather patterns were dramatically different than those today. Evidence of that kind of thing today is that the South Polar region, is now very dry. Basically it is a dry frozen desert.

The point of all of this is that apes that exist now, survived those many ice ages and their extremely harsh temperature conditions.

[Guest Crowlogic]

The point of all of this is that apes that exist now, survived those many ice ages and their extremely harsh temperature conditions.

The apes that survive today stayed home.  They didn't come up from their comfort zones for the very same reasons they are not in places like Finland today.  For the very same reasons we don't have alligators in the Great Lakes.   The Ice Age did not cover the entire planet in ice.  The tropics stayed the tropics and the tropics are the worlds prime primate habitat.  I'll say it again bigfoot proponents are willing to jump through too many hoops in order to keep the thing going.

 

 

Exactly how is this question relevant?  From a scientific standpoint, it isn't.  A scientist isn't even asking it.  A scientist is always asking, um, what does the evidence say?  OK, for most topics.  But scientists take off their scientist hats and replace them with foil knowledge-deflector beanies for this one.

 

The question is relevant because another posted that our ancestors were up into Europe.  It is relevant because for bigfoot to be in North America it has to have some sort of precedent that it arose from.The evidence is saying that people are willing to believe in something that requires a near total disbandment of critical thought.  The evidence has provided nothing of substance.  

Edited January 13, 2015 by Crowlogic

[Guest DWA]

The evidence has provided plenty of substance; it is the abandonment of the first effort to understand it by the mainstream that is the issue.

 

I think it's been pointed out here a hundred or more different ways that critical thinking applied to the evidence leads to and allows but one conclusion:  the reality  of the animal.

[norseman]

I'll ask Crow again........

If you believe that the creature called Sasquatch is extinct, then you must concede that your issue is time and not geography, how do you propose it got to North America ?

[Guest]

^

 

And how did it survive through cold weather into the 1970s.

[Guest DWA]

[yukyuk]...while we're on severe lapses of critical thought there, um, Crow...was it logic...??

[SWWASAS]

The apes that survive today stayed home.  They didn't come up from their comfort zones for the very same reasons they are not in places like Finland today.  For the very same reasons we don't have alligators in the Great Lakes.   The Ice Age did not cover the entire planet in ice.  The tropics stayed the tropics and the tropics are the worlds prime primate habitat.  I'll say it again bigfoot proponents are willing to jump through too many hoops in order to keep the thing going.

Here is a good example of how you are wrong with respect to apes.

"Gorillas once inhabited the entire rainforest that stretched from the coast of West Africa to the western arm of the Great Rift Valley.

During the Ice Age, the climate dried out and the extensive forests receded into two pockets; the gorillas became divided into the Western and Eastern populations, which then developed into three subspecies: the Western Lowland Gorilla lives in the lowland rainforests of West Africa (Congo, Cameroon, Gabon), the Eastern Lowland Gorilla inhabits the forests of eastern Congo, and the Eastern Mountain Gorilla is found only in the Ugandan Bwindi forests and the Rwandan Virunga volcanoes." Source: Gorilla Trecking"

As I said during ice ages many inland areas in more temperate regions that were forested became arid grasslands forcing many species to move to survive. Similar transformations happened in Asia. The Himalayas glaciated extensively covering huge areas that are temperate ape habitat today under thick glacial ice sheets.

We don't have alligators in the Great Lakes because during every ice age the area is covered with 1000's of feet of ice. The terrain there is still rebounding and raising from being covered during the last ice age. How do you suppose the present animals in the Great Lakes areas survived the numerous ice ages? Deer, moose, bear? Hibernation? They moved out as the ice sheet approached then moved back when it receded. Your stay home theory simply is not the way nature works with major climate changes.

Edited January 13, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[SWWASAS]

The Himalayas, which sit in the middle of most of the worlds ape habitat, not only effect that habitat but are probably the reason for ice ages to begin with:

"Some scientists believe that the Himalayas are a major factor in the current ice age, because these mountains have increased Earth's total rainfall and therefore the rate at which carbon dioxide is washed out of the atmosphere, decreasing the greenhouse effect.[42] The Himalayas' formation started about 70 million years ago when the Indo-Australian Plate collided with the Eurasian Plate, and the Himalayas are still rising by about 5 mm per year because the Indo-Australian plate is still moving at 67 mm/year. The history of the Himalayas broadly fits the long-term decrease in Earth's average temperature since the mid-Eocene, 40 million years ago.

Matthias Kuhle's geological theory of Ice Age development was suggested by the existence of an ice sheet covering the Tibetan plateau during the Ice Ages (Last Glacial Maximum?). According to Kuhle, the plate-tectonic uplift of Tibet past the snow-line has led to a surface of c. 2,400,000 square kilometres (930,000 sq mi) changing from bare land to ice with a 70% greater albedo. The reflection of energy into space resulted in a global cooling, triggering the Pleistocene Ice Age. Because this highland is at a subtropical latitude, with 4 to 5 times the insolation of high-latitude areas, what would be Earth's strongest heating surface has turned into a cooling surface." Wikapeda

This is quite contrary to your assertion that high latitude areas and tropic areas are isolated from producing similar effects during ice ages. Ice ages are a global phenomena with potential effects on species anywhere in the globe.

Edited January 13, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[Lake County Bigfooot]

Very valuable information SWWASASQUTCHPROJECT, thanks for posting all that...everyone can benefit from reading this  ^+^^+^^+^ 

This is what I desired when creating this thread, some informed discussion.  Was this all off the top of your head? or did it

force you to reference other material?

Edited January 13, 2015 by Lake County Bigfooot

[norseman]

But as I stated earlier? The weather for much of the time Berengia existed? Was MILD!

So we have no need to be forced to show the plausibility for a "Arctic ape". The weather the mountain gorilla must endure suffices for a hypothesis of an Asian ape crossing Berengia into North America, 12000 years ago along the shoreline.

[Lake County Bigfooot]

Norseman I agree that they adapted to colder environments, as they moved outward from the equator and temperatures 

decreased they also grew in size and mass in order to handle the colder weather.  Just because they were not originally

suited to the cold does not mean they couldn't adapt to the changing climate. I do not see them crossing polar ice sheets

but crossing during the warmer periods when sea levels decreased.  Then once in the Americas they were forced to adapt

to climate change, and in general because they preferred certain environments, just compare a Florida black bear with a

Canadian black bear and you will see this principle at work, which we all know as Bergmann's Rule.  A specie will vary in size

and mass in relation to the equator. Obviously these principles require time for adaption, if a catastrophic event occurred 

a specie might become extinct, as we see with Woolly Mammoths and other ice age creatures that have been found frozen

in place with tropical vegetation in the digestive tracks. It stands to reason then that this creature arrived on the scene during

the more recent past, after such catastrophic events took place. 

 

Bergmann's rule is an ecogeographic principle that states that within a broadly distributed taxonomic clade, populations and species of larger size are found in colder environments, and species of smaller size are found in warmer regions.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Lake County Bigfooot

[Guest Crowlogic]

I'll ask Crow again........

If you believe that the creature called Sasquatch is extinct, then you must concede that your issue is time and not geography, how do you propose it got to North America ?

I propose it didn't get here at all after considering the trek needed to get here.  Shake it and twist it as much as you like the bottom line is primates are not cold loving animals.  If you're in North America above Tennessee you better be cold adapted, very cold adapted in much of it.  I'm glad the subject of winter came up as it strengthens the case of the null set.   Let bigfoot hibernate and have infer sound and esp and all the other convoluted special dispensations it's all the same fantasy.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Crowlogic

[norseman]

They are called FACTS Crow, I'am not twisting anything, I have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that a hominoid could in fact make the trek from Asia to America. If your confused? Please reread my reference material........some highlights ARE;

1) Human evidence of habitation predates evidence of controlled fire by 600,000 years in Europe. (1 million years)

2) Beringia was a very mild climate because of Pacific Ocean currents.

3) Some scientists claim evidence of tool manufacture as old as 250,000 years in the Americas.

4) American fossils show a great many "non Arctic" species that made the trek from Asia.

Ok so now I understand your position to be that the creature never existed at all versus recently that you thought it went extinct, correct?

http://www.worldwildlife.org/species/mountain-gorilla

btw, mountain Gorillas endure temperatures below freezing at altitudes around 13000 ft. Evidently without the use of fire, shelter, stone tools or clothing.

It's 47 degrees and raining in Ketchikan on this fine day in January.......

[Guest Crowlogic]

http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates/early_2.htm This says it better than I can.

 

This pretty much explains it.  Primates didn't survive the cooler times and they retreated to milder climates when cooler times came.

 

 

 

Toward the end of the Miocene, less hospitable cooler conditions in the northern hemisphere once again caused many primate species to become extinct while some survived by migrating south into Africa and South Asia where it remained relatively warm.  About 8-9 million years ago, the descendants of the dryopithecines  click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced in Africa diverged into two lines--one that led to gorillas and another to humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos.  Around 7 million years ago, a further divergence occurred which separated the ancestors of modern chimpanzees and bonobos from the early hominins  click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced (human-like primates) that were our direct ancestors.