2015 The State Of Sasquatch Science

[WSA]

Good point about dolphins and whales, yes. It brings up another point too. Some animals may have the brain power necessary for speech, but may just lack the equipment to shape sounds, or might lack the physical attributes to make sufficiently complex sounds we would recognize as true speech.

[norseman]

It is pretty well accepted that whales and dolphins have language. So given enough intelligence we are not the only species with language. For all we know BF are kissing cousins to humans. The Sierra sounds BF only approached at night. They made numerous attempts at photography but when they would go out of there shelter, the BF would move away. At times the BF they were dealing with were so aggressive, especially at first, pictures were the last thing they wanted to get because it required them to leave the safety of their log shelter. Photographs are tough to get, even with benign and relatively friendly BF. For the most part, the BF in that area were not exactly friendly.I thought the Nelson alphabet thing was a stretch too. But he admits, that until some human has repeated face to face contact with a BF, to develop context, we can never learn their language.The real danger in shooting one is that you may not know what you have done, until after the fact.

There is no danger there, you cannot make laws for species who do not exist. Nelson's alphabet hypothesis is a huge stretch, and more importantly could be based solely on being hoaxed.

I will say this about the Sierra sounds, I have a buddy that claims to have heard something similar while riding his horse in Washington state. He also though has some theories about Sasquatch's origins that make my skin crawl. Dunno, never heard anything like that myself and if your being habituated? Then the excuses about why you don't have solid evidence become thin, yanno?

[WSA]

True about the Inca, yes (Unless you count their system of tying knots in string...a system nobody has been able to decipher. For all we know, they wrote out the unified theory of physics)

 

I am not so much questioning whether BF has a language, or not, or what it means to have a language with no ability to read or write it,  but whether that attribute alone is the single best indicator of humanness. I just don't think it is. Should BF have a language, does that mean it would be immoral to whack one? Not so sure that follows. 

[norseman]

But either way the argument is moot until you examine one and find out if it is capable of language or not. Does the species have a hyoid bone? Yes or no?

If we could send Jane Goodall in with a camera crew and make contact and interact with them? Then you could take all the samples you wanted and avoid the nasty specimen biz. And while your at it study their vocals and determine what's going on...,,,

Unfortunately that seems impossible.

[SWWASAS]

Having heard BF samurai chatter once it sure sounded like speech to me. It sounded female and sounded very much like a human speaking Chinese or Japanese. There has been an interesting experiment run by a psychologist with his dog, I think it is a boarder collie. Generally recognized as being one of the more intelligent dogs. The dog knows over 1000 words, each representing a toy or other object that the dog can find and retrieve. The man will name the toy and the dog will find it in a huge pile of toys and bring it to the owner. That means that the dog can understand English and associate a spoken word with an object. Perhaps the only reason it cannot talk back is that its brain is not wired for it, or it does not have what humans have as a language center in the brain. Certainly a 1000 plus word vocabulary is better than most human toddlers have that have some speech ability.

Nelson claims that BF speech is a combination of language of some sort and just sounds. The rate of speech is at least twice what ours is. It could be that they use a combination of speech, gesturing, and sounds to emphasize the meaning of gestures. That is very suggestive to me since gorillas and apes use similar gesturing methods to communicate. Perhaps the combination of gesturing and sounds is indicative of some sort of transitory stage of development before true speech develops. While I take such reports with a grain of salt, I have been in contact with people who have heard BF speak broken English words in the PNW and Spanish in Florida. That could be mimicry like a parrot or real language capability if the reports are authentic.

Jane Goodall approached solo and it was a long time before she had enough trust to introduce a camera into the situation. It would take something similar with BF. While I have attempted the same thing, the BF want no part of it. She was able, within a fairly short time to approach within visual range and observe. So there seems to be a big difference between Gorillas and BF.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[WSA]

But either way the argument is moot until you examine one and find out if it is capable of language or not. Does the species have a hyoid bone? Yes or no?

If we could send Jane Goodall in with a camera crew and make contact and interact with them? Then you could take all the samples you wanted and avoid the nasty specimen biz. And while your at it study their vocals and determine what's going on...,,,

Unfortunately that seems impossible.

I agree, it seems so now, and for the foreseeable future as well. I just enjoy kicking around the ideas in the meanwhile. If/when a species is identified, many of these thought exercises will become much less theoretical..in a hurry. It might benefit everyone to give the possible outcomes some study before that time.  You clearly have, and I appreciate your willingness to be challenged on them.

Edited March 26, 2015 by WSA

[norseman]

SW,

It cannot talk back because canines lack a hyoid bone.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone

We have found only one other species besides ourselves that have hyoid bones, and that would be Neanderthals.

Look, you seem to be a squared away guy and not in la la land. If you heard something out there that wasn't a known animal and you think it was some sort of speech? More power to you. I hate people who tell me this can't happen or that can't happen when I've lived it. It makes no logical sense to me but whatever.

Edited March 26, 2015 by norseman

[Guest Crowlogic]

I find it ever more astonishing that people tag things to bigfoot when there is no proof that they exist.  When you see the entire spectrum of bigfoot supposition from end to end it's pretty obvious that nobody really knows anything in spite of what they claim. 

[SWWASAS]

I find it ever more astonishing that people tag things to bigfoot when there is no proof that they exist.  When you see the entire spectrum of bigfoot supposition from end to end it's pretty obvious that nobody really knows anything in spite of what they claim.

Should I wait for someone to prove existence before I begin to study them? Proof of existence is a procedural thing that has not been completed yet, that I neither have the tools or desire to participate in (dead BF on a lab table). I just heard about a study about people that have made extraordinary discoveries. In nearly every case, it was people that devoted a significant and extraordinary amount of time doing it. Spending sufficient time is the key to discovery. Sitting back and waiting for someone else to prove something before devoting serious study will not likely accomplish something. With BF it is time in the field that will yield results. But I have to agree that some of the most vocal "experts" do not know what they are talking about.

[Guest Crowlogic]

Should I wait for someone to prove existence before I begin to study them? Proof of existence is a procedural thing that has not been completed yet, that I neither have the tools or desire to participate in (dead BF on a lab table). I just heard about a study about people that have made extraordinary discoveries. In nearly every case, it was people that devoted a significant and extraordinary amount of time doing it. Spending sufficient time is the key to discovery. Sitting back and waiting for someone else to prove something before devoting serious study will not likely accomplish something. With BF it is time in the field that will yield results. But I have to agree that some of the most vocal "experts" do not know what they are talking about.

You can do whatever you want to do.  However all one needs to do is to look at the gamut of bigfoot hypothesizing, speculation claim and counter claim to know that nobody has a clue. A quick trip around bigfootville will have them as mystical magical messengers, violent killers, playful scamps, brutish clods, alternate humans, meat loving hunters, leaf eating giants, tool users, shelter makers, cave dwellers, loners, family groups, tribes, intensely secretive, bold and unafraid and on and on.  Put it all together and there is no solid piece to build on.  That's why the body is so important as it will tell science how the creature lives and what it does.  If it was me and I wanted to study an elusive animal I'd try and get a grant to study Wolverines in the lower 48 states.  At least of the 300 or so a researcher actually has a proven  target to search out.  But then one would have to employ real science and scientific method and I haven't seen scientific method being applied to bigfoot research.

 

With regards to the amazing fantastic discoveries made that is a slippery slope and thus far each and every extraordinary claim made about bigfoot has not stood up to the light of scrutiny.  When the extraordinary discoveries are published in Scientific American then perhaps there something to them.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Crowlogic

[Lake County Bigfooot]

Down in Florida near Tallahassee, near Quincy Florida, if you think that there is not adequate wilderness to hide such an undiscovered creature, you do not have to go to the PNW to find it... Florida's wilderness coast is just one such area. I have been driving the roads enough to know. I am sure that if these creatures exist, which I feel certain they do, they exist here in the tropical rainy environments of Florida, with it's mixed forest and tropical undergrowth.

[SWWASAS]

Down in Florida near Tallahassee, near Quincy Florida, if you think that there is not adequate wilderness to hide such an undiscovered creature, you do not have to go to the PNW to find it... Florida's wilderness coast is just one such area. I have been driving the roads enough to know. I am sure that if these creatures exist, which I feel certain they do, they exist here in the tropical rainy environments of Florida, with it's mixed forest and tropical undergrowth.

Having flown over Florida quite a bit, what most people do not realize just from running around on roads there, is that the roads just allow access to a very small part of what is there. Much of what is there is pretty much inaccessible.

[BigTreeWalker]

You can do whatever you want to do.  However all one needs to do is to look at the gamut of bigfoot hypothesizing, speculation claim and counter claim to know that nobody has a clue. A quick trip around bigfootville will have them as mystical magical messengers, violent killers, playful scamps, brutish clods, alternate humans, meat loving hunters, leaf eating giants, tool users, shelter makers, cave dwellers, loners, family groups, tribes, intensely secretive, bold and unafraid and on and on.  Put it all together and there is no solid piece to build on.  That's why the body is so important as it will tell science how the creature lives and what it does.  If it was me and I wanted to study an elusive animal I'd try and get a grant to study Wolverines in the lower 48 states.  At least of the 300 or so a researcher actually has a proven  target to search out.  But then one would have to employ real science and scientific method and I haven't seen scientific method being applied to bigfoot research.

 

With regards to the amazing fantastic discoveries made that is a slippery slope and thus far each and every extraordinary claim made about bigfoot has not stood up to the light of scrutiny.  When the extraordinary discoveries are published in Scientific American then perhaps there something to them.

Your list includes a lot of typical primate behavior seen at one time or another. You did include some outlandish behavior to muddy the waters. But, are we to throw out the baby with the bath water and start over from scratch? Should we be looking at skunk behavior or porcupine behavior instead?

[Lake County Bigfooot]

SWWASP Yes you are right, and what is true about Florida is certainly true elsewhere.  Anyone who says there is not enough wilderness to hide such a creature has not seen much of the country, or has not been to such areas. I have spent a good deal of my life in the North and always thought we had pretty wild areas in Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota, areas such a Kentucky and Tennessee have vast wild areas as well, no problem for these creatures to live in small numbers around the country. The amount of undeveloped areas is astounding from the air as you mention, but so is the spread of developed areas. It is a race against time for this creature to continue to thrive. We do need to protect the open spaces that remain in this country if we are to have any quality of life for future generations.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Lake County Bigfooot

[SWWASAS]

One thing that constantly amazes me is the impression I get from driving around in Skamania County WA for example is that roads go pretty much everywhere.    You get distorted mental picture of where nearby roads run from being familiar with the landscape and driving around.     You think other roads you have been on have to be just over that ridge or something like that.    Then from the air, looking down,  everything is different.   The next road might be 3 or 4 ridges distant with no road access anywhere between.     Some of the areas,  a full days hike in will just nibble at the edges of areas without road access.   Most of the forest roads are gated closed and locked.    Google earth does not show locked gates or lack of access.    There are huge areas where the only way to penetrate is on foot.   You could literally hide army divisions in the woods and no one would know they are there.   There is a lot of wild country out there.