Ape Canyon -- Did They Shoot One?

[BigTreeWalker]

Thanks Explorer, that was an interesting read (and yes I read the whole thing).

I think the biggest problem with getting the story right is trying to relate it 40 some years later. As I posted in the other thread about the cabin, 40 years ago my brother and I spent almost a week up in the canyon. On the way out of the canyon at the end of our camp out we had a problem getting out of the area. A logging company was getting ready to start logging more in the valley and had moved a very large excavator into the middle of the road, I guess to keep people out of the area. They didn't bother to check if someone was already there. We had to dig some in the ditch under the turret which they had turned crossways in the road. We were able to drive under and around it and got out with a little work!

The interesting thing is last month I was discussing the trip with my brother and found that he remembered having problems getting out of the area but couldn't remember the exact reason why. Maybe I remembered because it was my car I was worried about messing up.

The point is that after 40 years I wonder if they discussed it much amongst themselves. We don't even know how many of them were still alive. I think a forty year old memory might have some inconsistencies attached to it. Even as far as who exactly did what and when.

Just a thought.

[MarcMyrsell]

By 1960, all but 2 miners associated with the AC incident were dead.

 

There were two other people who helped with the mine. August Johanssen was a life long friend of Marion and was out with him when he died while fishing on the Cowlitz in 1935. Mac Rhodes was a neighbor of Fred Beck's, near Harris Road in Kelso. I have not been able to track down his whereabouts as I think he moved out of the area to parts unknown. Johanssen and Rhodes helped with the mining efforts for the previous 2 years, but were not there during the July, '24 incidents.

 

The only other person available to talk during the 1960's interviews was Leroy Perry Smith, Fred's brother-in-law and Marion's son. In an interview of 1924 Leroy told the reporter that he didn't know what that was, but he knew that he never wanted to have anything to do with it again. He meant it. I spoke with Leroys daughter. She was sort of aware of the AC incident, but I think that she didn't know that her father was involved. I asked her if her dad had ever spoken about his "mining days" with his dad, Marion. She said that he never said a word.

 

Through Todd Prescott, I found that John Green, while interviewing Beck found that Leroy lived only a few miles away and was still very much alive; but that "he didn't want to talk about it". John, being a gentleman, didn't pursue it. I cannot say that I could've let that sleeping dog lay and would've gone and knocked on his door, probably only to be run off the property, I'm sure.

 

On Mr. Donlon's piece, I've read it through many times and, yes, yes, I do have some rebuttal to discuss. However, perhaps it would be better for some Sasquatch event to host an Ape Canyon Point-Counter-Point discussion with myself and Mr. Donlon on the topic. That'd be fun.

 

Marc

[bipedalist]

If it is D B Donlon of whom you speak, he made it quite clear he bowed out of the Sasquatch scene five or more years ago.  If it was he, he had a blog called the Blogsquatcher.com which at one time was archived somewhere by somebody but I think it has long ago deep-sixed.  If David Donlon is not D.B. nevermind, lol. 

[Bonehead74]

Yes Bipedalist, it is DB that Marc is referring to. You are correct, he is no longer on the bigfooting scene, although he occasionally mentions something sasquatch related in his current blog, "Dreams and Phase Transitions" currently open to the general public: http://dapht.blogspot.com/

 

A good bit of the old Blogsquatcher posts are archived there. It's worth a visit for the open-minded. If you like your bigfoot sans weirdness, on the other hand, it might not be your thing.

[bipedalist]

^ Thanks for the heads-up and that final blog of his was a doozy and not unlike some of the conclusions a few of us have confronted.  I am thinking about The Phaige and yours truly among those.  I have not totally abandoned ship yet, but my core has been shook in ways different than his (but following the same ley lines so to speak).  

[Shelly]

.30-30 Winchester is not a bad rifle round either. Its .30 caliber and  would have some punch. It is not so far off from .30-06 (.30 caliber, 1906) or British .303.  Especially for that time it would be one of the larger commercial rounds, I would think.  Even the old . 45 Colt hand gun and lever action rifle round has a lot of stopping power at 100 yards or less.  It would certainly put a hurting on a Sasquatch, especially several well placed shots or a volley from several shooters at once.

[BigTreeWalker]

Your right Shelley, the .30-30 is a good cartridge and rifle combination. Very popular and still manufactured today. It's the 1st centerfire rifle I owned. My grandpa had a rifle almost identical to Fred Beck's except it had an octagon barrel. Beck's was round. The .30-30 has probably taken more game than almost any rifle out there, except maybe the .30-06. As I mentioned before, shot placement is what counts.

[Airdale]

WRT stopping power of the .45 Long Colt cartridge, there are some variables that must be taken into account. The .45 Colt was introduced in 1872 and in 1873 was adopted as the official U.S. Army handgun round together with the Colt Single Action Army revolver. This was a black powder cartridge designed for use in weapons with much milder steel than is available today. The ballistics from a hand gun were roughly 850 to 900 feet per second with a 230 to 250 grain lead bullet, comparable to the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) round originally designed for the venerable Colt 1911 pistol. A good man stopper but, especially with the soft lead bullets used at the time, limited in penetration on larger animals.

 

Even when smokeless powders became standard around the turn of the last century, factory loads continued to be loaded so as not to exceed the pressures generated by black powder loads, as they are to this day. There are two particular reasons for this. First, the cartridge cases for the round were much weaker than those designed for more modern handgun rounds, using what is known as a "balloon head" design. In this type of case, the case head is relatively thin with the primer pocket extending beyond the head into the case interior leading to the case head separating from the case body if too heavy a powder load is used, with dangerous results. Even though modern .45 cases are made with a thick case head equivalent to other modern cases, there are still many older Colt revolvers and reproductions in use that aren't designed for "magnum" pressure loads. Even currently manufactured versions still have thin cylinder walls that preclude the use of overly robust loads. It is quite possible to safely fire .45 Long Colt rounds loaded to .44 Magnum like ballistics, but only in revolvers such as the Ruger Blackhawk or Freedom Arms which are much more heavily built.

 

The chambering of rifles for the .45 Long Colt cartridge is a fairly modern development driven by such things as Cowboy Action Shooting competition. While it was common for early lever rifles such as the 1873 Winchester to be chambered in pistol calibers so that a person could use the same round in long gun and sidearm, those were rounds such as the .44-40. Other than some kind of custom conversion (unlikely to be owned or carried by the miners) there would not have been a rifle chambered for the .45 LC at the time of the Ape Canyon incident.

[MarcMyrsell]

Thanks for that info Airdale. I'm putting it in to the Ape Canyon file.

 

Marc

[clownboy]

I never doubted there was some truth to the incident. That news clipping just doesn't seem to match the story told in present day. I kinda imagined the miners hunkered down and scared poopless all night in the cabin. Then maybe as they retold their story and as others re retold the story, additions were made to spice it up. Look at other naratives from the past, Washington and the cherry tree...Lincoln never told a lie(even to his wife?)...Some guy with a coonskin hat wrestling a grizzly bear. We accept all these tales with a grain of salt and believe they are based on a truth, just embelished. I see this incident possibly the same way. It's a great story even if it's false so I'm not looking to tear it down. In regards to the stories of boy scouts throwing rocks at the cabin, wouldn't that be Minor on miner crime?

Edited May 11, 2015 by clownboy

[Guest]

Oh, hey, the coonskin cap guy was said to have killed a BF (forest ape) with a knife. And killing a black bear with a knife has been done recently, although back then, the bears might have been bigger, the men were manlier.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

In regards to the stories of boy scouts throwing rocks at the cabin, wouldn't that be Minor on miner crime?

 

Yes, it was a minor case of miner inconvenience.

[Airdale]

Thanks for that info Airdale. I'm putting it in to the Ape Canyon file.

 

Marc

 

My pleasure Marc! The time and effort you and your group have expended in researching this subject is commendable.

[Guest]

Oh, hey, the coonskin cap guy was said to have killed a BF (forest ape) with a knife. And killing a black bear with a knife has been done recently, although back then, the bears might have been bigger, the men were manlier.

 

That would be Daniel Boone.  He called them Yahoos, after the hairy giants in Gulliver's Travels.  Supposedly a tall tale, but who knows?

[Oonjerah]

Daniel Boone and the Yeahoh

http://www.bfrpky.com/BOONE.html