Cascades Carnivore Project - How Do They Miss The Bigfoots?

[MIB]

Is there a significant number of elk kills that can't be accounted for each year? After calculating natural deaths, kills from predator populations, and hunting are there missing elk or deer.

Many on this forum claim Bigfoot can run down and kill elk and deer at their leisure. If Bigfoot populations are indeed robust as reports, and unreported sightings, indicate and bigfoot does infact does hunt large game a significant number of elk and deer should be missing each year.

 

Your last statement is one of those things that is "not even wrong."   

 

In a healthy population of prey animals, the effects of predators ... cougar, bear, coyotes, wolves, humans, bigfoot, and any others is completely invisible.   The population level is controlled by the amount of food available that has to be shared by the population at the lowest ebb of the winter "pinch period."   Generally this time comes at the end of winter when new growth is just starting to sprout but is washed out and has no nutritional value.   The critters weakened by winter conditions finally starve to death.   If the pinch period food supply will only support 1000 animals, you come out of it with 1000, a bunch are born, a few die of old age but most of the old fall to predators, hunters get some, maybe bigfoot gets some.  It doesn't matter whether there are 1001 survivors up to the peak of the pinch or 1500, whatever is over 1000 starves to death and you're still down to 1000 for the beginning of the next cycle.   There is no way, given that, to tell just on the population numbers at any given time, whether the deaths are due to bigfoot, humans, cougars, 18 wheelers, or any other cause.   It is only when the population drops below what the pinch period can support .. which varies in the real world depending on annual cold, rainfall, when winter actually ends, etc ... that there's any way to tell there's a predation factor of any sort.

 

This is is simple wildlife biology.   Every kid in my state who turns 12 and wants to hunt has to pass hunters ed and this is a major part of the class.   I would think an adult interested in joining into conversation about outdoor things, whether they believe in bigfoot or not, ought to have this down pat.

 

MIB

[Guest Urkelbot]

I don't think you understand my point.

In a well known study plot an ecologist studying deer populations should know the carrying capacity for the given area. If they have accurate and current predator population numbers they can predict how many will be preyed upon. Based upon known data on deer life spans, weather, disease, accidental human kills, hunting, etc a model can be created which will accurately predict deer populations. A statisticaly significant decrease for the area would be interesting for the ecologist especially if seemingly identical areas separated geographically had very different populations.

If Bigfoot exists in relatively large numbers in a given area and hunt deer regularly a decrease in the population would be observed. If this area was well studied and all other variables regularly affecting deer populations were known it would be observed by the ecologist. Or the area could have a low population of deer relative to the known predator population. This would indicate something unknown was preying on the deer.

[kitakaze]

Anyhow, while purely conjecture on my part, if Sasquatch is avoiding camera traps? It probably has a lot to do with a long history of aversion to humans as well as a careless researcher eating Cheetos before handling the camera .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scottv]

Hello everyone,

 

Why are there so few of these things? If such a creature exists it has to be treated as a normal, biological, entity. Why should it be so rare? Grizzly bears (similar size and presumably diet) densities reach 1-3 bears per 100 square km in good habitat. This is a big area but it’s not that big. Basically 6.2 miles by 6.2 miles. Actually sasquatch numbers should be on the upswing as grizzly bears have been eliminated from much of the lower 48 so sasquatch numbers should have expanded to fill in the niche. They should also be much less skittish in national parks where there is no hunting. Also, large home ranges and migratory behavior (which I believe they are said to have) make it easier to get trail cam photos (more movement = higher probability of being photographed). Grizzly bears at these densities are documented by trail cameras all the time. These are clear photos and not bear blobs or shadows in the trees (not that you don’t get blobs from known species). Yes, individual animals can hide and be hard to find, but populations cannot. The point about proper camera placement for a particular species is definitely a valid one and it can be argued that the various projects are not setting the cameras to properly sample a sasquatch population. I personally don’t believe that to be the case, but I have to concede the point. I would think game trails in the vicinity of rivers would be hotspots, especially in the winter. What do people here think would be the best habitat or placement setting to sample a sasquatch population with trail cameras? Agreed, one technique does not work for all species. However, for all of these long term camera projects (including NAWAC), as has been pointed out, that many cameras in the same area , of what is considered to be good sasquatch habitat, for that many years and no sasquatch but all other mammals from medium dog size on up. This is certainly telling.

 

As much as I like the idea of sasquatch I have to be skeptical given the lack of solid data for an animal that should be not that difficult to document. I can only speak for myself but, as a wildlife biologist working for the federal government (albeit not in the Pacific Northwest, mostly on Pacific islands) if I had solid proof of a bipedal ape in North America, I would not cover it up. I would publish in “Natureâ€, pick up my check for 10 million, fund my own personal research projects and live happily ever after.

[kitakaze]

Soon's I finish this deer haunch wait a minute here [TREEKNOCK] [TREEKNOCK] gotta invite the fam, sheesh, fatherhood.

 

So, Larry, Bigfeets don't want to be captured on trail cams?

 

Neither do alpha coyotes, which is why they aren't.  Pays to stay informed.

 

 

 

 

Even in the study of the wariness of alpha adults of trail cameras put out by humans (the wariness coming from them observing the humans put out the objects as compared to a neophobia) they are still photographed. Three times in this one study...

 

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1227&context=icwdm_usdanwrc

 

They're also photographed in the wild by photographers not expecting them...

 

[norseman]

Oh......you must have missed the 10 page thread in which Jerrywayne explains to us proponents that Sasquatch is a recent invention. And that the ape canyon attack in 1924 was nothing more than a local Boy Scout troop rolling rocks down the hill at the miner cabin ........mystery solved! Thanks Jerry!

Let's see snelgrove lake cabin incident.......something steps on a nail board put there by the owner in the offseason. So the cabin was not occupied for months during winter correct?

I have no idea what the yellow line photo is.

And I thought sneaky squatch crawling for zagnut bar was busted by ranae from finding Bigfoot? If I remember correctly bobo was roughly same shape and size as target on the thermal video.

Kit? A wolverine would chew your arm off to get that zagnut bar.......and he is much smaller than you. And I tend to dismiss urban Bigfoot stories as pure fantasy.

If squatch lacked any fear of humans? Humanity would have killed them off a long time ago. Or they us.......

[norseman]

So how do you hoax tracks like these?

Since Bigfoot does not exist because a specific study group has not gotten a photo of one? What's walking around in deep snow making five toed tracks with a gait beyond the capabilities of a human?

Kinda hard to drag your buddy down a road with stompers on without leaving a snowmobile trail to follow......so if they are hoaxed I would like to know how.

[Drew]

A. I would think a person in a parka with boots and gloves, in a car, or truck, would give off far more vibrations, or odors, than a trailcam.  Yet Bigfoot are reported crossing highways, at Rest Areas, on Mountains full of people with RVs etc... Why does Bigfoot frequent areas with all of those odors and noises, and yet some how magically avoid trailcams?  

 

B. Game cam pic of a snake you ask? Hawk eating a snake. Bam.

 

<<Drops Mic>>

[norseman]

Drew?

What put the trail camera there in the first place?

As far as crossing highways? Iam sure they are well aware of a human presence but as we humans have carved this country up? They have no choice, but to cross.

A camera trap in the forest? Not so much.

[Guest DWA]

Hello everyone,

 

Why are there so few of these things?

 

As much as I like the idea of sasquatch I have to be skeptical given the lack of solid data for an animal that should be not that difficult to document.

 

All I can say is:  when you see a bigfoot, don't hesitate.  Run in and tell your boss because SHE MUST KNOW AND SO MUST THE WORLD.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

Who said there were so few of these things?  Evidence indicates otherwise.

 

I'm not sure how it is that skeptics and proponents alike continuously stumble on what seems to humble folk like me the most screamingly obvious thing going on here:  the society is convinced the animal isn't real.  It's all well and good to say all this stuff about "I guarantee you if this were out there and I found out I'd make the rest of my..." and I hear this from scientists all the time, because, well, you guyzangalz are pretty sure you'll never have to cash your assets to pay that bet off.  Proponents on the other hand have this simple concrete mundane primate orb-ing, fourth-and-fifth-dimensionalizing, shape shifting, burying its dead, scrambling the frequencies of our cellphones, wiping our data cards, predicting where we'll be and taking fry cook jobs at McDonalds to avoid our scrutiny.

 

People don't think that universal denial is possible in the 21st century.  Please.  It's rife.  Evidence says so.  And concrete scientific thinkers go with the evidence.  You are, um, one of those, right?

[bigbear]

^Please share all of this evidence you keep talking about over, and over... and over (one more time to get point across) and over regarding countless topics.

 

With all this evidence and science know everything you sit on I'm still waiting for your review paper(s) to be published. I'm sure it's going to be mind blowing. 

 

Talk about same old song and dance...

[Guest DWA]

And with regard to my general thesis:  a fine read of all that research Kitakaze puts up there reveals the fundamental assumption "since this animal isn't real...", which underlies pretty much everything scientists say about the topic.

[bigbear]

and another dodge

 

surprise surprise

[kitakaze]

Retired park rangers too (you know, kinda legendary ones):

 

http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=12302

 

Um, and let's see, Government geologists (this report flat reeks of the cogency, precision and conciseness of the true scientific mind):

 

http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=1241

 

And do you believe Conservation Northwest was being truthful or are they hiding the awesome truth of Bigfoot?

 

 

An interesting question for members of the Conservation Northwest. Have any of the researchers/members ever had sightings, encountered or even recorded anything that could be attributed as evidence of the alleged species of large bipedal primate known popularly as Sasquatch/Bigfoot? The Washington State is said to be a hotbed of activity by Bigfoot enthusiasts.

Furthermore, whether or not any such experience has happened, what do you think of the notion that were an encounter to happen or evidence be collected, it would be withheld for fear of ridicule or suppressed in some fashion?

Thank you for your wonderful efforts and all the best to all of you this Holiday Season!

 

Barbara Hi *****, I've been at Conservation Northwest for more than a decade and in that time we've never seen evidence of Bigfoot in our hundreds of cameras. I can't speak to if someone else would want to withhold evidence that is scientifically feasible, if there were any, but good science reveals all evidence, not just the results you expect. Thanks for the thoughts--interesting.

 

Barbara, thank you so much for your reply. That is as much as I expected. I write on various forums and blogs on the subject of Bigfoot/Sasquatch from a skeptical viewpoint, addressing claims of evidence made by Bigfoot enthusiasts and believers. One claim that keeps coming up when I ask why are not groups such as yours working so hard to document rare mammal species in the heart of Bigfoot country not finding this evidence, is that they think you do find it, but will sweep it under the rug for fear of losing your jobs, fear of ridicule to release it publicly, or that the government is somehow aware of Bigfoot existing and keeps it hidden. 

 

Bigfoot enthusiasts show maps showing thousands of alleged sightings all across North America, hundreds of them being in the areas that your groups have been monitoring for years. Strange that we can document on camera and with DNA a single wolverine covering a huge expanse of Washington territory, but a breeding population of massive bipedal forest dwelling primates gets no results at all.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and please keep up the wonderful work you do for the real animals that need it. 

 

 

Bob Jackson has some interesting stories for sure. There's been some weird experiences at Yellowstone, apparently. Jackson also has some UFO stories to tell as well...

...does anyone want to know about blue lights moving in the mountains or “spot lights†from the sky lighting up a quarter mile area of mountain in front of one just like daytime with all the trees and rocks visible? One sees some fairly uncommon things while riding the trails at night.

 

His stories are interesting, but unfortunately they are not reliable evidence of Bigfoot. Being legendary and being in law enforcement does not make one above telling stories. I'm not saying he is, just that it is at least as likely to having really seen Bigfoot.

And for your Yellowstone government geologist sighting report, I have seen it before and it screams of the fake sightings reports I mentioned in another thread. The manner of writing is far more like a young person drenched in footerisms and spitting them out in a packaged attempt to make a credible encounter. Two, count them, two government scientists see tapetum lucidum-foot with the prerequisite mention of head and chest and shoulders moving as one. We are Geologists, yessir, with a capital G. That's a real science-y type title there and no I can't spell "sighting", thank you very much. 

 

EAR: 1978

SEASON: Spring

MONTH: May

STATE: Wyoming

COUNTY: Park County

LOCATION DETAILS: We were on a widing reach of highway with dense frest cover on either side. At the precise location of the siting we identified a standard under-road box culvert with a secondary channel flowing through. There were standard metal barrier s on either side of the road protecting the culvert and vehicles. We had seen no homes or lights for perhaps 30 minutes and it was another 30 minutes before we reached the park gates - where there were no rangers available to report the siting to.

NEAREST TOWN: About 30 minutes east of the East Gate to Yellowstone NP

NEAREST ROAD: On the road from Cody to Yellowstone

OBSERVED: The siting was witnessed by my friend and myself, both Geologists, while driving into Yellowstone from Cody for employment at the Park for the summer. My friend was taking his turn at driving and I was soaking up as much as I could see as well as providing a running commentary to keep my friend alert during our long drive. As we came around a curve in the road our high beams illuminated a large dark shaggy figure coming up out of the ditch on the left side (south)of the road at a distance of about 200 -250 ft. As we approached the figure at a speed of about 45 miles per hour, it looked first at the vehicle (we noticed the yellow reflection from it's eyes that is seen in a dog's eye when light catches it at night) then deliberately turned it's head away from the lights. That motion was non-human or bearlike, in that the the shoulders, chest and head moved simultaneously as it caught site of our vehicle and then turned it's face away from the headlights. We slowed (OK , we slammed on the brakes), stunned at what we were seeing and trying to rationalize we were looking at. A hominid creature, perhaps 7 to 7.5 ft in height (we have a 7 foot friend as a reference), massing perhaps 600 to 800 pounds without obvious signs of obesity, standing completely and comfortably upright, came up out of the ditch from the left side of the road right at the edge of the metal barrier above the culvert. It took 3 extrodinarily long and fluid strides across the highway (22 ft) and another 3 of 4 shorter strides down the other side of the road actually appearing to catch hold of the metal barrier/railing with one long fingered hairy hand and swinging down under the road into the box culvert or channel bottom completely out of our line of site. We stopped the vehicle within 25 feet of the culvert and watched the final decent of the creature into the darkness of the channel. At this point we speed on toward the east gate of YNP hoping to find a ranger to report the siting to and perhaps to go back and take another look. There was no one at the gate due to the late hour and we didn't see any lights on anywhere, so we continued on to our destination and went to bed deciding not to contaminate each others observations with discussions until morning. In the morning we both independently described graphically and in writing as much of what we had seen 6 hours earlier. This is a synopsis of our findings. There were virtually identical down to the movment of which leg moved first as the creature crossed the road. The head appeared to merge into the neck and there was no snout or protrusion from the face as would be commonly seen in a bear (I've seen hundreds, up close and in person) The face was not clearly visible and was only glimpsed for a moment. We both got an impression of long hair covering some of it. The nostrils were large and open, but neither of us were able to describe mouth or teeth. The eyes weren't exceptional, just the reflection of gold, like a dog's. What each of us can still describe with great clarity in the size, shape and unique fluid movment of the creature. It was big, 7-7.5 ft ish, but not much bigger than that. It was heavy and powerful looking. In shape, it possessed a rather blocky, yet elongated head,slightly domed on top of the cranium, thick short neck, broad shoulders, full chest. It was square and longer through the torso and hips than a human. As it walked across the road in front of us, the buttocks were clearly seen as muscular masses moving under heavy shaggy hair, they obviously attached to long powerful, muscular thighs longer in proportion to a human, big knees that functioned as a human knee, thick mulcular calves and feet in proportion to the rest of the oversized body. The soles of the feet appeared to be hairless or less covered in hair and very dark in color. The arms hung from heavily muscled shoulders and were longer than a human reaching to knee length and extending fully and almost a horizontal positon to the front and rear of the body as it moved. The elbows were perhaps a little further down the arm that on a human - or the unusual length of the arm made it appear so. The hands were large and long fingered, neither of us could later describe the palms, nails, or other than the backs of the hands which were covered in the same long shaggy dark brown hair as the rest of the creature. The creature made no sound nor gesture throughout the siting. It appeared a little startled at our vehicle appearing out of the night, but in no other way frightened or threatening. Starled the heck out of the two of us, though!

OTHER WITNESSES: 2 witnesses. One witness had been driving the vehicle from Cody towards Yellowstone. The passenger was resting from a 4 hour driving shift, but entirely too excited at the prospect of finally reaching the park to be sleepy. The witnesses were engaged in active conversation regarding the next days activities. The driver was a very alert individual, a trained field research scientist, and the passenger, was also very alert to the surroundings, identifying vegetation, geology, looking for anything to point out to the driver. The passenger was also a trained field research scientist. Neither of the witnesses were fatigued, intoxicated, or medicated. Neither are prone to flights of imaginary fancy. Neither is a believer in ghosts, UFOs or other odd anomalies.

OTHER STORIES: I have no personal knowledge of other sitings of this nature in this area, however, your webiste indicates 2 additional sitings in the general area a number of years later.

TIME AND CONDITIONS: Siting occurred at 1:45 am, the weather conditions were clear, calm, and cool. The nite was very dark with only starlite and the headlights of our vehicle on highbeam providing illumination.

ENVIRONMENT: Pitch black. Driving on a winding forested road for the first time. Dense pine forest cover on both sides. Stream along one side of the road. Ditches and fill slopes were fairly steep and deeper than 10 feet.

 

 

Total boonswoggle Bigfoot porn written by a teenaged Bigfoot enthusiast, meant to excite other enthusiasts. As credible as a three dollar bill.

[WSA]

Dagnabbit Drew. Oh, o.k.....hmmmm....what about......treefrogs?!! Got any game cam photos of TREEFROGS? Didn't think so. Hmpfff.

 

Norse, the canine brain is a pretty weird and active place, as you well know I'm sure. If I had to guess? Your acceleration/deceleration patterns are different when you got to town and when you go to your mom's. I had a dog who could pick up the frequency of my wife's car from a block away. Not just any same make or model, you understand, but THAT engine only. Makes me wonder if dogs could also diagnose engine problems like they do medical ones.