Sasquatch And Fire

[hiflier]

Hello JiggyPotamus,

If it's the BBC video I didn't see the bird push any buttons but the editing did make it look like it waited for the green crosswalk light. And I think some clever editing did come into play there. The bird may have learned that when the people walk across then it's clear to go for the nut but at the same time I saw it trying at all times regardless of the light change. I think though that given enough time at that spot, seeing as how it's already mastered the car/nut cracking part, it may actually deduce that when the people go it can eat without getting mashed by a bus.

How do you find this stuff?

Edited September 4, 2015 by hiflier

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

This bonobo toasts marshmallows and puts out a campfire with water.

[hiflier]

Hello ChasingRabbits,

And it learned this in the wild all by itself? And then came out of the wild to teach a Human how to do it? I'm not trying to say that it isn't possible for a creature to learn how to do this obviously, and I am duly impressed. But the Bonobos do not make fire. No creature makes fire. We make the fire and do the teaching.

How long did it take for the Bonobo to learn this? It used a lighter not friction. It was not observed by scientists who discovered the Bonobo in the wild making fire. Can they do this? Apparently so. Do they do this on their own? No, they don't. My guess is if they tried any success could take centuries after the first attempt was made. Maybe they already tried and the repeated failures caused them to give up the idea. It's hard to know what goes though the intelligent mind.

It's a great vid and thank you for posting it but it's a long, long way from thinking that anything makes fire but us. If Sasquatch makes fire Rangers would be seeing the campfires burning all the time. Maybe they do and just think it's Humans but I truly do not think that is the case. And it wouldn't be like the cowboy movies where when Humans are approaching the "campers" quickly kick dirt on the fire to put it out.

So, nevermind about "where are the bones"- where are the remains of the campfires?

Edited September 4, 2015 by hiflier

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

I presume the bonobo was taught by humans to use the lighter, etc.  But it shows that the bonobo has the capacity to learn. Learning is done primarily by observation.

 

Here's a vid from 1963 of an orangutan washing clothes. A juvenile orang is watching it.

 

How quickly a primate society picks up a skill, I think depends on the skill. For example, some snow monkeys (technically they're macaques) of Nagano Japan soak in hot springs. The story goes in the early '60s a monkey accidentally learned how to bathe in a hot spring, liked it and returned for more. Others in its family troupe joined it and liked it too (I can't say I blame them!) Now they are a great tourist attraction in Nagano. Now it doesn't take much "skill" to sit in a pool of water and clearly it was easily adopted by the other snow monkeys.

 

The West African chimps who crack nuts supposedly have been doing that for centuries. They use tools---granted the tool is a rock, it's still a tool. And the nut cracking technique varies from chimp family to family. Per National Geographic, it takes about 7 years for a chimp to master nut cracking. It also looks like chimps will bring their nut cracking rocks with them to various nut sites. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0523_020523_0523TVchimps.html

 

I guess my point is that fires are something that happens in North American forests. Fires start either by natural causes (lightning strikes) or manmade events (camp fires, etc.) So fire, itself,  wouldn't be an unknown thing for a BF living in California or other places with wild fires or for a BF who observes human camping in the woods, etc.  Also if a BF habitually observes camping humans, I think they will learn the uses of fire and how to tend a fire like that bonobo did. I'm not saying that they could do it, but they will have the understanding of its uses.

 

BTW, have a safe and fun Labor Day weekend everyone!

Edited September 4, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[BigTreeWalker]

Hiflier,

My observations a couple weeks after the big fire in north central WA last year, were that the bears and coyotes returned to the burn area very soon. Which is understandable as they were probably scavenging. The area I was in is a canyon and a main animal passage from the higher to the lower elevations. There is also a spring in the area at the base of the canyon which was dried up, probably due to the fires. The odd thing was that there were also deer in the area, though there was no undergrowth whatsoever. In other words nothing for them to eat until at least two months later when some of the plants began to come back up from the roots. This area was 2 miles inside the edge of the fire zone. So animals are present or passing back and forth through these burned areas very soon after the fires. Didn't see any BF tracks but they would have been easy to spot if they had passed through the area.

[hiflier]

Hello ChasingRabbits,

I absolutely agree. The capacity to learn complicated maneuvers and skill is certainly within reach of these animals. With the Orangutan washing clothes is a fine example. But does it understand WHY it's washing the clothes? So in a way it's all about not so much the action but the reason for it. We know why we was clothes.

Learning to make fire as the video is doable. The Bonobo has an intelligence capacity to learn that skill. But I question that unless prompted to exercise those skills would it think to just do it on it's own because it can? Maybe so if it knows it's the method to have delicious roasted marshmallows But by itself many steps need to be performed to get that roasted marshmallow.

In the wild fire evidently hasn't been a necessary skill to learn so with no one to get a lesson from it won't be learned. Because the first thing would be understanding and making it somehow a necessity. Something I don't think a Sasquatch has arrived at even after it sees Humans make fire. I just don't think that the necessity connection is there.

[hiflier]

Hello BigTreeWalker,

So there's a reality to this line of thinking after all. Thank you the observed supporting evidence. It sure has made sense to pursue the concept which is a logical extension of watching for Sasquatch just after a fire starts or during the burn itself. Now we have opportunity after the fact as well. And the absolute icing on the cake? It means that in order to have the potential for possibly seeing a trackway and following it one doesn't need snow to do it. So the dangers of winter tracking and getting caught out in bad weather, or even risking that the trackway will be covered up and lost (other than rain) disappears. And now for the final phase of the discussion: Access!

In wrapping up this discussion and line of thinking there is one last detail to go over. And that would be the likely points of entry into the burned areas. Animals are efficient and so will pick the easiest routes from utility right-of-ways, to worn paths, to fire and logging roads. For deer it gives the fastest escape as running and bounding can be done at full tilt. And the distance to a fringe area lessens ambush threats. It also makes sense to use these access avenues to regain a presence into the burn areas and back. Number one for protection and number two for re-access to areas where safe foraging might be found. After which a return to the burn area might be preferable.

One thing I was curious about though is whether or not the smell of scorched trees and ground clutter masks the smell of a predator. It must mask the smell of the prey some as well though which may serve to offset any disadvantages. I think it safe to say that the dynamic of a wildfire with regard to BF is a layered exercise in gaining a possible picture for how to stay on the trail of such elusive creatures should they exists. A fire situation I think is probably the only scenario available to us in which we may have a chance of getting ahead of the creature; or at least gain some advantage in our favor for the search.

Edited September 4, 2015 by hiflier

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

Hello ChasingRabbits,

I absolutely agree. The capacity to learn complicated maneuvers and skill is certainly within reach of these animals. With the Orangutan washing clothes is a fine example. But does it understand WHY it's washing the clothes? So in a way it's all about not so much the action but the reason for it. We know why we was clothes.

Learning to make fire as the video is doable. The Bonobo has an intelligence capacity to learn that skill. But I question that unless prompted to exercise those skills would it think to just do it on it's own because it can? Maybe so if it knows it's the method to have delicious roasted marshmallows But by itself many steps need to be performed to get that roasted marshmallow.

In the wild fire evidently hasn't been a necessary skill to learn so with no one to get a lesson from it won't be learned. Because the first thing would be understanding and making it somehow a necessity. Something I don't think a Sasquatch has arrived at even after it sees Humans make fire. I just don't think that the necessity connection is there.

 

We won't know if the orang understood the reason for washing the clothes. But with the bonobo----it seemed to know that roasting a marshmallow enhances marshmallowy goodness (if the bonobo starts making and eating s'mores that'll be something!?). The snow monkeys in Japan seem to know that sitting in hot springs is a great way to warm up and relax. And the nut cracking chimps seem to know that they have to crack/break the nutshell in order to eat the nut.

 

I don't know if BF harness the power of fire, like that bonobo did. But if other primates can use tools and use fire, I don't see why a BF would not possess the capacity for learning how to use fire.

 

But as you said, BF might not use it because they don't have a need to use it. (sorta like me and changing a flat tire----as long as I keep up my AAA membership, learning how to change a flat tire is one of those "it's good to know" things, not a "have to know thing".)

[BigTreeWalker]

Hiflier,

I could suggest a recently burned area. Although the fire may not be fully contained. One of the fires in Okanogan County, WA between Omak and Lake Conconully is mostly in NF so access is fairly easy. It's also in an area with many sightings. However, everyone should be aware that even though it's easy to move around in a severely burned over area there are deadfall dangers and hidden holes in the ground. Access by animals, though they may use older familiar trails, can be pretty much from any direction.

I don't know if the recent fire smell can mask scent for animals. But for us humans the smell can definitely be overpowering. It's like putting your face in a recently extinguished campfire. It gets old real fast.

[hiflier]

Hello BigTreeWalker,

Man, does it ever! Heading out to retest that for a couple of weeks at the end of next week . I'll let you know if it's still true And thanks for bringing up the hidden dangers we need to be aware of should any of us venture into such conditions. Safety is number one. Hard to bring back that voucher specimen when one's leg is stuck in a hole up to one's thigh. Be safe everyone!

@ ChasingRabbits,

I concur with everything your said there.....including the tire bit LOL. BF may know about Humans and that when they appear at a location there sometimes follows the appearance of a small fire. They may know it's related and may even see us in some kind of motion before the fire happens. These days in their newer subsequent generations they may have forgotten or have never seen fire by friction. We humans have these little things, matches, lighters, flint, that they don't have. Like the Bonobo they might have the capacity to learn how to use these gadgets but they simply don't have them to use. And no amount of watching our methods will help them if they think it can only be done using our tools.

Sometimes keeping thoughts as simple as an animal might have isn't all that easy for me. But it does put things into a better perspective when and if I can.

Edited September 4, 2015 by hiflier

[hiflier]

Hello All,

No need to start a new thread when I can just as easily bump this one. I read this today:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/massive-salvage-logging-under-way-at-colville-after-wildfires/

"With more than a quarter-million acres of critical winter range burned, Justin Dellinger, wildlife biologist for the tribes, worries there could be mass starvation of animals if winter is severe. Crowded into what few green reaches of habitat remain, animals out of their territory are acting in ways people here have never seen. We’ve had adult deer killed by black bear; that just doesn’t happen,†Dellinger said. “That’s how pressed in they are on each other."

What do you think ? Was it really black bears? You know, this thread became incredibly on point to the extent that it shook me a bit when I read the article. The heightened animal concentrations, the dead animals, all of it. It was all stuff that seemed logical even though I didn't really know for sure whether or not it was fact. Now it's a worrisome reality. There are dead animals everywhere.

The BFRO has listed the most recent Washington sightings. Out of 32, 11 of them were in 2015 and half of those were during and after the fires. But there should be dead ones now to find too? Especially when one sees this:

 

The caves would be the first place I would look.

Edited December 16, 2015 by hiflier

[Twist]

Look in the caves for signs of BF, there is the only way to know, investigate.    

 

Regarding BF killing deer and it possibly being black bear...look at the signs, teeth marks and claw/paw marks.  Given the track records of bears it should not be hard to identify a known predator and a possible unknown one if you are an expert.