Painthorse Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 @Btw, I agree about the lack of bruising. Also no evident scar tissue. Also in the above cropped pic on the left, it shows better how the cloth was tied. Earlier in the thread I was trying to explain how the cloth was tied with hay string and that it looked odd " bunching " in that specific area, instead of it being smooth/uniform. @hiflier, yup, you got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hello Painthore, Just a thought: Would whatever it was have to "slip the latch" so to speak to enter the building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painthorse Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hiflier, the shop <in the middle> is kept locked with a key. One side is used for a horse stall and the other side is open in front and is used for storing firewood and where we feed the cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Hello BigTreeWalker, This question is for you. Because the mark looks like a sort of sideways bite mark it gives the impression that it's maybe an unsuccessful attempt by something around five feet tall to take one bite out of the flesh. By perhaps a tilt of the head? Now put that whole thing out of your mind just for a second. What if it's not one or two attempted sideways bites through the cheese cloth? What if it's a series of small vertical mouth gnaws matbe starting at the top of the wound and working side to side on the way to the bottom? Biting more as an effort to bite through the wrappings. Could then a rodent of other small animal that either climbed up the carcass or slid down from above from the eaves inflict such marks when sitting in the deer's tail area. So instead of looking at one bite mark we are looking at say 6,8, or 10 vertical. bite marks Edited December 4, 2015 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Yes hiflier, that is a possibility. I think that is what some of the other posters above were saying. I could draw some of the colored circles everyone likes so much but I will just try to explain what I see. If we take a look at each of the upper right impressions which are approximately 1/2 inch wide; there is no scores in the flesh down the center of the impressions. Which would be necessary if we are looking at a rodent. Also the only rodent that could make each of those impressions with a single bite would have to be porcupine size. A rat would have to make two bites to make each of those impressions. Okay, this is the important part when looking at that bite and pretty much eliminates the rodent idea. Look at the tissue between each of those impressions. It actually is squeezed out as it would do between two hard surfaces. In this case teeth. That couldn't happen with multiple individual bites. There would be no oozing out taking place beside a tooth with nothing next to it. Now I am probably going to hear maybe the rodent made two of those impressions with each bite. Yes that would cause the oozing out between the teeth as I said. But if that was the case we just found evidence of the largest rodent in existence. What I see is a single bite with no evidence of multiple bites of any kind. No overlaps. Nice neat impressions. That's it. So we have to come up with an explanation which considers this evidence. Our conclusions need to be based on what is there. I would suggest a horse with messed up lower teeth if that's what makes you feel comfortable. Your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hiflier, After rereading your post I think your suggesting the bite could be across the impressions instead of parallel to them? If this were the case we would see multiple scores in that direction and they just aren't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Hello BigTreeWalkerThank you for your reply and the follow up. I looked again at the right photo in Painthorse's OP. The text states that the bite mark was noticed after the cheesecloth was unwrapped from the area. What I was describing was based on the horizontal raised "ridges" between what appeared to be incisor marks. These horizontal raised ridges just struck me as being the result of pinching the flesh from above and below. I was also looking at the single mark closest to the crook between the finger and thumb that looks more like dents or bruised pinching from a small jaw. It too has a raised ridge in the middle of the "pinch" but perhaps the cheesecloth prevented any tearing of the tissue there? In the upper right in one of the sideways "incisor" scrapes it looks as though there are three parallel vertical inside the incisor scrape which go up and down (down and up?). Could this have caused by a small animal that couldn't get passed the cheesecloth but instead only pinched and tore at the tissue underneath? The cats may have then scared it off. Speculation? Oh yes LOL! Edited December 4, 2015 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted December 4, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 4, 2015 painthorse Do you have cows? and if you do is it possible that it might have been them? Like I have said if it was a bigfoot the deer would have been gone, no if's about it. There would no test bite, since if there is time to taste there is time to take. If they are Hungary they are not going to waste time of tasting they are just going to take. They are wild and can eat this meat raw no matter how rotten it is. For them it is energy that they can conserve until there next meal. It is just like hunters having their game missing that they have just shot only not to find it. Why? cause these creatures got to it first only because the hunter was being observed with out knowing. Unless the creature decides to make himself be discovered. The same goes with a human that is Hungary, we as humans see this as an open opportunity to take. If I was a lost soul who was hungary but I am being stealthy. If I see a deer hanging and have opportunity I might cut myself a piece and get out fast. Wild animal are not just going to leave this animal that is dead and hanging in the open and take a test bite . A test bite just to see if it taste ok, no this wild animal is going to tear into it... It could be that maybe some one dug into it with their hand to either grab the deer to hold while wrapping or during the processing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hello Painthorse, I hope you and BTW don't think I simply trying to be difficult. IMO it's always good to rule out the common if possible. I cannot say it isn't a Sasquatch bite. At least not a tall one- maybe an inexperienced one? Counting Coup perhaps? Possibly. But what I really want to say is that you did a good thing to document this and then pull it here for us to look at and discuss. Good job indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hiflier, I think I see what you are looking at. I think it's the underlying muscle tissue. Because it extends down through all the impressions. As I said that mark on the left is probably a couple bad, crooked teeth. It is a characteristic distinguishable enough to convict the culprit if you ever got a look in its mouth. You can also see the muscle texture going a different direction in this area. I would definitely like to see the animal that could make a rectangular cross-sectional bite like that without leaving scores as we very apparently see going the other direction. ShadowBorn, I think the cow question has been asked and answered. You are right about most animals or hungry humans pilfering the deer. But since we can only speculate about bigfoot, this might point to its intelligence. This is a human habitation, so if anything was taken its presence would definitely be known. Maybe it wasn't hungry. Maybe it was trying it out to see if the cheesecloth added any flavor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Raider Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hiflier, I think I see what you are looking at. I think it's the underlying muscle tissue. Because it extends down through all the impressions. As I said that mark on the left is probably a couple bad, crooked teeth. It is a characteristic distinguishable enough to convict the culprit if you ever got a look in its mouth. You can also see the muscle texture going a different direction in this area. I would definitely like to see the animal that could make a rectangular cross-sectional bite like that without leaving scores as we very apparently see going the other direction. ShadowBorn, I think the cow question has been asked and answered. You are right about most animals or hungry humans pilfering the deer. But since we can only speculate about bigfoot, this might point to its intelligence. This is a human habitation, so if anything was taken its presence would definitely be known. Maybe it wasn't hungry. Maybe it was trying it out to see if the cheesecloth added any flavor. It may be a very good idea if possible to try and photograph the nearby horse's teeth if these lower marks are very distinguishable.........at least it may be possible to rule out that suspect if they don't compare well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painthorse Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 @Celtic, pics include the barn to show that the arab stud would be unable to reach the hanging deer from his stall, teeth pic included. Another pic shows the front paddock with the 2 other horses. Sockett got his morning coffee so he didn't mind his dental photo shoot. The other dental photo is my old mare. Who is 26 years old, all 3 horses have excellent teeth. Hope this eliminates my "horse done it theory". Again---> No cows, owned on property, leased on property, or feral on property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Thanks for posting those pictures painthorse. This is just an observation. I think that if any of those horses had taken a bite like we see in the deer we would have just seen a large semicircular gouge. The teeth may be the right shape but the gum line extends to the bottom of the teeth. Whereas our teeth are more open and able to leave more individual impressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painthorse Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) BTW, yes sir I agree. I've been bit and nipped several times (not by my horses). The worst horse bite I've ever seen was when a friend of mine was standing next to a stall (she did not know the horse and neither did I ) it clamped down on her shoulder and left a ugly, severe bruise in a semi circular pattern from both upper and bottom teeth from the front and back of her shoulder.. I'm glad you pointed out the gum lines (gap between the teeth) in the deer pic. That has me miffed, along with what would "appear" to be one of the bottom teeth (pic cropped and enlarged) most closely resembles a bicuspid BUT the placement would be incorrect. When I get the time I am going to do some google image searches on tooth impressions, just random and see what pops up. Edited December 4, 2015 by Painthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Painthorse, in our research, one of the individuals that left impressions has a slightly twisted upper incisor. It it also distinctive enough to identify that individual if more impressions are found from that individual. It does look like a bicuspid impression. However, with respect to the rest of the impressions appearing to be front teeth, as you say, the location is wrong. A couple twisted or broken lower incisors could also be the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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