Missing 411 And Albert Ostman

[MIB]

I was just digging around hoping to find the page and volume so I could cite it ... no luck.  

 

You are both somewhat right.   He has not directly named a culprit-of-choice.   I interpreted some of the points he emphasized in his first 2 books as suggesting whether he'd say it or not, bigfoot was involved.   He made a statement in one of the later books that he didn't think it was bigfoot anymore, he thought the abductions were more like alien or demonic abduction stories.   That's what I wanted to find for you.   Bummer.

 

Since I can't find the reference I'll just have to let it go for now.

 

Carry on ...

 

MIB

Oh ... uh, Ostman vs Missing 411.   There is some parallel though "almost" none of the Missing 411 found in any shape to provide any information were fully functional adults, most were children or somewhat .. uh, "mentally limited" ... and everyone who "came back" seems to have some kind of memory gap.   That's interesting.   That points to two possiblities ... either they were somehow "affected" or they experienced trauma so severe they blocked it out.    Ostman didn't seem to suggest any level of terror in his story, more puzzlement (as I read it) than anything else.   That's somewhat different than the Muchalat Harry story.

 

MIB

[norseman]

I'm not being a jerk MIB, when you find the goods can you pm me plz?

I wanna read it.

[TD-40]

I was just digging around hoping to find the page and volume so I could cite it ... no luck.  

 

You are both somewhat right.   He has not directly named a culprit-of-choice.   I interpreted some of the points he emphasized in his first 2 books as suggesting whether he'd say it or not, bigfoot was involved.   He made a statement in one of the later books that he didn't think it was bigfoot anymore, he thought the abductions were more like alien or demonic abduction stories.   That's what I wanted to find for you.   Bummer.

 

Since I can't find the reference I'll just have to let it go for now.

 

Carry on ...

 

MIB

Oh ... uh, Ostman vs Missing 411.   There is some parallel though "almost" none of the Missing 411 found in any shape to provide any information were fully functional adults, most were children or somewhat .. uh, "mentally limited" ... and everyone who "came back" seems to have some kind of memory gap.   That's interesting.   That points to two possiblities ... either they were somehow "affected" or they experienced trauma so severe they blocked it out.    Ostman didn't seem to suggest any level of terror in his story, more puzzlement (as I read it) than anything else.   That's somewhat different than the Muchalat Harry story.

 

MIB

I have not got into Paulides' latest urban stories yet, where he writes about college students that go missing and later are found where search parties had already covered. Obviously these cannot be bigfoot if the missing persons are located in urban areas. So if these urban stories mirror the rural and outdoor stories, then I'm at a loss as to what to think. I'm not one who gets into paranormal stuff but this may force me to.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

RE: urban disappearances. I've listened to Paulides talk about them in podcasts. They are odd, indeed. A very recent  disappearance/death  in the DC area is very similar to the patterns DP described. You can google it and read the various local tv news reports about it. Type "Paul McGuiness, Madam's Organ" (Madam's Organ is the name of a bar). But you need to read all the local reports because each one gives a different bit of info. For example the ABC affiliate reported the police told the family not to speak to the media or divulge info. The NBC and Fox affiliates say he was found in a stairwell and that the upper floor access is locked.

 

I don't have Facebook, so I don't know if Paulides knows about it.

 

Anyhow, I don't think BF is involved in the urban disappearances. My guess is that drugs are involved---either they take the drug intentionally or it's slipped to them in food/drink. They slip into some kind of drug-induced psychosis and  they stumble out of the bar, stumble away and stumble to their unfortunate deaths.

 

As for the sylvan and riparian disappearances, I lean towards abduction with the children. I have a memory from when I was 3 or 4 years old. I was in my backyard playing with my stuffed bear and my cousin (who was babysitting me) was weeding the flowers about 10 feet from me. I look over to her and there's this man (blond-reddish hair, with a beard, sunglasses, wearing a beige leisure suit & black shoes---hey it was the 70s, gimme a break!) walking into the yard, headed in my direction. My cousin doesn't see him because her back is to him and she's busy weeding. I ran screaming into the house, ran upstairs into my parent's bedroom and hid under the bed until my mom came home and dragged me out.  I remember my mom was very upset with my cousin.

 

Granted abduction might not fit the case of that one boy who reportedly seen atop a ridge, but I think for most of the cases it's abduction.

 

(Happy New Year everyone!)

Edited December 30, 2015 by ChasingRabbits

[JDL]

It's been a few years, but when I read the first 411 book, it seemed to me as if some of the accounts were leading up to a conclusion or theory, then simply stopped short.  It felt as if they had been written with the conclusions/theories fully included, then those had been edited out before publication. 

 

I think people here are right, that Paulides decided the books would have more impact if he didn't pin the disappearances on any one thing.  The fact that so many occur, and keep occurring, is sensational enough.

[norseman]

I think the Dennis Martin case is a very good case to propose that Bigfoot or wild mountain men or someone who could pack a kid deeper into the wilderness was responsible for his dissapperance.

Not a stretch at all imo.

[JDL]

I think that quite a few of the accounts are possibly, even probably, bigfoot related, but not all.  Several could be, but human causes can't be ruled out either.

[norseman]

It's been a few years, but when I read the first 411 book, it seemed to me as if some of the accounts were leading up to a conclusion or theory, then simply stopped short.  It felt as if they had been written with the conclusions/theories fully included, then those had been edited out before publication. 

 

I think people here are right, that Paulides decided the books would have more impact if he didn't pin the disappearances on any one thing.  The fact that so many occur, and keep occurring, is sensational enough.

I watched an interview in which he stated he didnt want to speculate on causes for fear of hurting the missing persons family further.

Which is cool.

a) Your child is missing.

b ) Your child was kidnapped by a 800 lbs wild man and probably eaten.

We know nothing as fact....so why add to the trauma? Better to speculate amongst ourselves.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

One of the urban disappeared was found alive, per a DP interview.  He was in his late teens-early twenties at the time. He was found a few months later, in a field a couple hundred miles away, wearing a different set of clothing. He is a psychologist somewhere in the West (Colorado or Arizona?). DP reached out to him, but the man doesn't show an interest in talking with DP. 

[Guest]

I've read the Western Missing 411 book, i bought it because i read about it on a BF site. It was the sort of read that gives you all the facts, clues  and witnesses but no suspects (other than certain descriptions). Get to the end and make your own mind up with the only known link between all the cases being location, in my mind come the end many of the cases related to BF, cases with good and bad endings.The author doesn't direct you to this conclusion witness statements do and they don't realize this.

 

The other thing that i realized was that there are two cover up's going on, one being the hiding of ALL these cases as a group and the second that BF is/was/could be implicated.

 

The other thing, despite it not having a plot/story and the repetition of case after case it's a very gripping read.

[Guest]

Main issue is there are not alot of ''escapees''. Just a few handfuls, some were kids, not sure what happened to some of them that were found, the 411 books don't often go into alot of details.

[MIB]

There are a number of other cases though the Dennis Martin case is a prime example.   One involved a couple kids who hid even from the searchers so the big gorillas didn't find them.   Another involved someone seeing a climber thrown from a cliff.   Several involved "bears" and "wolves" tucking a kid under their arm and carrying them off .. not in their mouth.  

 

Ignoring the bigfoot angle entirely is a mistake.

 

However, it's not ALL bigfoot.  Some were the victims of human foul play.  Others are still alive ... unaware they were still listed as missing.   And some are just plain weird like kids taken from house with locked doors and windows. 

 

The weather factor is interesting.   It seems like "something" knows more about what weather is coming than our National Weather Service and can plan abductions ahead of sometimes un-predicted weather that covers their escape, or at least used to ... our forecasting is better.   So .. does that point to something with technology superior to ours?   Does it point to "animal" senses that detect changes in weather prior to their arrival?   Or does it just mean that the abductions which were not followed by bad weather were solved so they're not mysterious?

 

The take-away, for me, from the Missing 411 books is "pay attention."   Not just keeping an eye open for tall hairy things lurking behind trees, not just for sketchy looking people around campgrounds and trailhead parking lots, not just overhead for UFOs, nor just for shiny / shimmery / blurry spots in the woods .. but for anything out of place.   I'm not as paranoid as that probably sounds.   You can't truly enjoy and appreciate what you take for granted so that awareness of and attention to observing what is around me is its own reward.

 

Back to Ostman?    Some of the Missing 411 stories have a similar feel but many do not.

 

MIB

[Guest]

Wolves could be Dogman sighting, now that Dogman is almost mainstream. Scary thought, I know of just the one he always talks about where the Green Berets were involved and all.

 

Yikes. How many missing people compared to shark, bear, mountain lion attacks /kills? It is rare, but its there.

[Guest JiggyPotamus]

I never thought that there was much incentive for Ostman to fabricate such a story. Plus it is true that knowledge of bigfoot at that time was virtually non-existent, except for among Native Americans. If I remember correctly Ostman was warned right before he went into the woods to watch out for bigfoot, and I think that was the first time he heard of the creature. Here is what we do know: if he truly was abducted by a bigfoot then he did not need to have any prior knowledge of, or experience with, bigfoot. If on the other hand he made it all up, he would have needed some knowledge of the animals to begin with. Given that knowledge of bigfoot at the time was limited, even among Native Americans, there is a good chance that the little details Ostman gives about the animals would betray him.

 

I say that even the Native Americans weren't informed about bigfoot because usually they just knew the animals existed. The descriptions of the animals from various tribes differed to a certain degree, although the more major details usually were pretty close to one another. Even though we do not know for certain every little detail of bigfoot today, going back through Ostman's account to at least see if his descriptions are plausible would be a good thing to do. It has been so long since I've read it that I cannot remember those details. One thing that I find interesting is the claim of why he was taken. I can only imagine how strange it would have sounded back then, even though it is still strange today, although somewhat plausible, which I will describe later on.

 

Let's assume that a decent percentage of the people, especially children, who have gone missing in bigfoot areas were actually abducted by sasquatch. It is probable that it has occurred on more than one occasion, considering that a big part of the Native American descriptions include such abductions. Couple that with the more modern accounts of bigfoot abducting someone, and there is reason to believe this is more than possible. At the very least there is absolutely nothing that would prohibit them from abducting a person, especially a small child. So why would bigfoot take someone? As you mention, food is a possibility, although I imagine such a thing would be likely only for a small percentage of mentally unstable sasquatch, since I doubt it is a species-wide trait, or if game animals were very scarce. I do not think that all of the Native tribes say that bigfoot eats people, but some of them definitely did or still do believe this. You have to wonder why bigfoot would choose a person over something like a deer though.

 

I am especially interested in those accounts for which there is something to suggest a bigfoot abduction. Such as when a child actually describes what took them to be a large, hairy person. Children don't grasp the idea of bigfoot, and I believe that their descriptions of such an animal can usually be taken at face value...at least when they've been missing for days and pop up all of the sudden, unharmed and healthy. Such cases would be the best type of evidence for abduction. I can certainly picture a female bigfoot attempting to raise a human child, and there is at least one account of such a thing occurring if I remember correctly. There was the one where the child was accidentally shot, and he made some kind of yell to call a large, female bigfoot. Something like that anyway. But then again I think that the female bigfoot spoke English or something in that account, so maybe it is not trustworthy, lol. Regardless, it is possible, considering female sasquatch likely have few offspring and because of this they devote much attention to each one to increase their odds of survival. Consider that some female sasquatch may not be able to get pregnant for whatever reason, and considering that humans look the same minus the hair,  it is possible that this maternal instinct would drive a bigfoot to abduct a child. It is quite possible.

 

A child who has died of exposure in the woods is much more likely to have been lost than to have been abducted by a bigfoot. I doubt that a bigfoot would allow an abducted child to freeze to death, considering the body heat of the bigfoot should be sufficient for warmth. It's possible I suppose, but that does not seem very maternal or paternal, if the child was taken to be raised. If however there was evidence to suggest a bigfoot abduction in such a case, then perhaps the bigfoot did not understand that human children are not protected from nature in the same biological way, as you suggested. I also can believe that under certain conditions a bigfoot would be driven to abduct an adult human for mating purposes, considering that propagation of the species is an instinctual drive. If there is absolutely no other way for a female bigfoot to conceive, then the similarity of our species may give them the idea. It is probably even more likely for a male bigfoot to abduct a human female, which would have nothing to do with propagation of the species. It would likely depend upon whether humans females are attractive to male sasquatch. That is kind of weird to even think about, lol.

 

 

To answer your question, again assuming that we know that some cases were actually bigfoot abductions, I do not think it really has any bearing on the Ostman case. Why not you ask? Because I think it is a given that such abductions can occur, but it is also a given that humans will invent stories that aren't true. Whether or not one case is true does not really have any bearing on another, unless details are available. Again, this is assuming that abductions are already going on, otherwise the Ostman case would be related to other cases because they would suggest that abductions are occurring- but if you already accept that then the cases need not be tied together. Details can be tied together, but Ostman has no parallel as far as I know. 

 

In the abduction cases involving children who disappeared and reappeared under mysterious circumstances, and who actually give some indication that a sasquatch was involved, there is some form of evidence available- that evidence being the circumstances themselves, as well as the child's claims. What makes the claims of a small child more believable to me is the fact that they are unlikely to even know of the idea of bigfoot, much less known anything about them, while an adult would be more likely to know such things. Children invent stories, sure, but they are less likely to invent a detailed story, or a story about something of which they have no knowledge. So I would take the report from a child, given the right circumstances, over the report from an adult any day, as long as the adult's case had no actual evidence to back it up. That is in a general sense, as it would depend on the particular case, and again, this is in reference to abductions. I would take the reports by adults more seriously in the case of sightings, because they are likely to be more accurate. Although a child's report could even be useful in determining whether something was truly seen in the first place.

 

[Guest]

Or, he could have heard the story from a Tribal member, may have heard it around the campfire, who knows? Although Tribals are unlikely to talk about such things, it could have been an old grapevine story, maybe it happened to someone else.

 

Short and sweet Jiggs.

 

Caviot: You have to be captured, then, you have to GET AWAY! Without the gun, Otsman would not have gotten away! Maybe they knew he NEEDED his clothing and sleeping bag etc to survive, so they wanted him alive, which would make sense.

 

Still short and sweet, just like me.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Wag