Let's Talk Caves and Sasquatch

[Incorrigible1]

Next time, simply carry bigfoot kryptonite: a game camera. Problem solved.

[TritonTr196]

Hello TritonTR196,

Allow me to sweeten the pot if I may: Number of mines in Washington-515; Oregon-589.

 

http://www.abandonedmines.gov/Abandoned Mines:

ID- 8-16,000

WA- 2,000

OR- 5,800

MT- 4,900

NV- 10,600

CA- 17,700

 

These are probably big and deep enough to stand in. A word of caution: they are also big and deep enough to die in if one isn't careful and that includes Humans as well livestock along with any unwary wild animals. It happens.

Thanks for the info on the mines. That is alot of abandoned mines out west. We have a few here in the south also. I guess bigfoot could move around better in a man made mine but not so much in a natural cave system. You're right they are dangerous and best to be avoided.

[Guest UPs]

Here is an idea for those of you who are good at tech stuff. Develop a map of say the US plus Canada and overlay all sighting reports along with known cave systems and/or the geological areas that are conductive for caves to exist (lava tubes, limestone, etc). I would expect a strong correlation if they indeed do use caves as a primary domicile.

Some of the descriptions folks have reported include large eyes, ability to see at night, strong odors, and matted hair. All of these are what I would expect from an animal that spends much of its time underground. Can you think of anymore?

When I think about the idea of BF living in caves, it reminds me of a book that I read many years ago about the Vietnam war and specifically the tunnel rats. For years, the VC would use man made and natural tunnels to stage attacks and escape from allied forces. It took a great deal of time before the US forces figured out what they were doing right under them and when the tunnels were explored, it appeared that thousands of VC lived in them. These tunnels were mostly man made and kept them hidden for years.

I am currently reading Missing 411 the Devils in the Details and near Hannibal, MO, 3 teenage boys went missing in Murphys cave area. The boys went into the cave system and have never been found. There are probably thousands of caves in the US that have yet to be explored. UPs

[Cotter]

Don't expect a bear to be perched up on a ledge that a Condor is using.  

 

 

Umm....what?  I guess that I wouldn't expect it per se, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  It's a big ol' goofy world.

 

 

 

Edit - I think UPs has a good idea.  I'm glad to hear that lava tube were brought up.  Where are the highest concentration of lava tubes?  Where is 'ground zero' for BF sightings?  I think one could find a correlation there.

And, I also think most folks think of caves as being some sort of cave-man type cape, where you walk in 50 or so feet and it ends.  Mind you access to some caves is very difficult and the extent as to how far these caves penetrate the ground can be amazingly deep. 

 

I think to assume all BF use caves is wrong.  I think to assume all caves would be utilized by a BF is wrong.  I think to expect that all caves have been investigated for BF is wrong.

 

Good topic hiflier.

 

(ps, I live in an area ripe with caves, years back I used to explore a bit with friends.  One time we were growled at when leaving a cave, with the noise maker rapidly approaching.  I don't think it was a BF, but rather some other sort of animal.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

The subject might better be, where does Bigfoot go to hibernate. If you look at the sightings dates on the spreadsheet I put up there are not sightings in midwinter. Does BF make its own hollows to over winter or use natural ones or both? Does it overwinter above the tree line, below, or at what average elevation?

[Guest JiggyPotamus]

I would say where caves are available they might make use of them but by no means does lack of caves does equate to lack of bigfoot.    I think they're biologically adapted to cold, wet weather and it doesn't bother them like it does us.  I think the assumption of need for caves is more of a projection of our need than reflection of theirs.

 

MIB

I completely agree with this assessment, and this is not the only instance of humans confusing their own requirements with those of sasquatch. And really, how many caves actually exist in sasquatch habitats across North America? I'm sure there are quite a few, but there could not be a cave for every sasquatch- not even for any meaningful percentage.

 

On the pro side of the debate there is the fact that caves offer natural shelter from the elements. Sasquatch also seem to stay out of sight most of the time, and even though this is most easily explained by them hanging out in remote forested regions, this explanation can be supplemented by the idea of them holing up in caves. Where the elements are concerned, it would make sense to think that an intelligent animal, seeing a cave, would use its natural shelter to escape harsh environmental conditions. Even if sasquatch are able to tolerate the weather, it is hard to believe they would do so in comfort. They may still get cold for example, and it seems logical that they would seek a way to feel more comfortable if they could, thus they might seek caves.

 

It is also speculated that sasquatch may be able to see in extremely low-light conditions, and most caves have no natural light whatsoever, especially the deeper one goes, thus unless an animal were to spend their time very close to the entrance they would need to be able to see in the dark. Although even animals that we think see in the dark usually do not really do so, as they still need some ambient light, as is probably the case with sasquatch. They could however go deeper into a cave and still be able to see, as long as there is light at the entrance. Another element that suggests the affirmative is the existence of eyewitness testimony which places sasquatch in a cave. I do not recall there being all that many, but they do exist.

 

There are also negative aspects to the question of whether these animals spend time in caves. For instance, caves but a barrier between an occupant and the outside world. This may not seem too important, but to an animal that depends on being aware of their surroundings this could prove dangerous. Not having any natural predators, perhaps this does not apply that much to bigfoot, but it is a possibility. Caves also trap an occupant between the cave interior and the exit, and this could prove dangerous if there is no secondary exit point within a short distance.

 

The small number of personal accounts that associate sasquatch with caves could perhaps be explained either by false testimony or isolated incidences which do not reflect a larger trend among the sasquatch population.  Where the elements are concerned, as MIB pointed out, sasquatch are definitely able to tolerate it, even thrive in it, as attested by their very existence; because surely not all of them always have the shelter of a cave during freezing and rainy conditions, meaning that throughout their existence these animals have been forced to endure conditions that would kill a human in a short period of time, and they have still managed to survive. So that is how we know they are very robust. Their size could have something to do with insulating them from these harsh elements as well.

 

In the pro paragraph I mentioned that it seems logical for sasquatch to seek caves for comfort's sake, but it is also possible that the weather does not make them uncomfortable in the least. All mammals have a certain temperature range in which they thrive. Once temperatures dip below a certain point an animal might become uncomfortable, but they can still survive. Some animals, let's say cats, can survive temperatures below freezing, but it is stressful and hard on their bodies. They will seek warmth despite the fact that they do not need to strictly for survival. My point is that if sasquatch do not use caves, it is because they can naturally, and comfortably, tolerate extreme conditions. They may never need to seek shelter, or perhaps they need only seek shelter in conditions that rarely come around, thus an individual sasquatch may use a cave only a few times over the course of years.

 

Obviously there are other reasons for and against the cave hypothesis, and it is very important that any talk concerning sasquatch and caves be extremely specific. Meaning that there is a difference between living in a cave, which implies repeated use on a daily basis, and using caves in extreme weather, or for any other reason. This avoids people approaching the same topic or question from different or contradictory positions. One question I have is whether sasquatch would share a cave during severe weather, since it is unlikely that enough caves exist in an area to shelter more than a handful of sasquatch and, if they have one, their family? I also wonder whether the stronger sasquatch would run any weaker sasquatch out of a cave, or any highly desirable area (possibly because of food source availability)? Each cave would have the most dominant sasquatch in it, plus their family members. If there are five caves in a given area, then the five most dominant animals and their families will gain control of them.

 

Now think about this- if the latter is true, then why would the majority of sasquatch even attempt to seek a cave under any circumstances, knowing they would either get run out by a more dominant animal, or would have to fight off less dominant animals? It just would not seem worth the risk for the majority of sasquatch, considering that this majority is not going to be dominant. Admittedly however there are other possibilities and factors that would need to be considered. I do think that these are all very possible, if not probable scenarios.

[hiflier]

Hello JiggyPotamus,

Good post. I would like to address a point you brought up about not being able to see in the dark. I would like to couple it with the reports of eyes that witnesses say shine by their own luminosity. Not eyeshine but eye glow. Even our own bipedalist was witness to such a feature. In my way of thinking, and I've been turning this cave thing over and over, being able to see by virtue of having eyes that self illuminate solves the dark problem.

In face the whole cave concept solves a lot of things about Sasquatch. Right now I'm on a caver Forum discussing a caves acoustical properties to get some answers for some particular dynamics- one being using a cave to magnify a howl and the other to here noises from outside at a distance. I'm also looking into why a cave would be a transient place as opposed to a permanent one year to year by understanding bat populations and hibernation as a winter food source. Bats will leave if there are even small intrusions during hibernation.

They only store about a pat of butter's worth of fat and if disturbed they will use up some of that fat arousing from hibernation. If it happens often they will starve to death before insects hatch in the spring. Or end up flying out of the roost and into the winter air. Cavers are encouraged to not enter these caves in the winter for that reason. This is what research is all about- trying to support a hypothesis especially if it's seen as an extraordinary claim.....see the signature below and read See-Te-Cah's quote.

[BigTreeWalker]

If all bigfoot needs is temporary protection from the elements here's something that is available in many forested areas.

Short-Term Mild Weather Shelters

"The easiest may be the low-hanging tree. Many large pines drape their branches almost to the ground, and under these lowermost branches you are relatively safe from wind and rain. They also tend to have a comfortable layer of needles already there."

From here: http://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/winter-shelter-ze0z1301zsau.aspx

In the GPNF I've seen young noble firs where there is almost a cave around the trunk where the branches hang down. A very simple ready made shelter.

[dlaw]

I believe BF's do use caves on occasion, but only temporarily.  Used to go in a lot of caves when younger, many with multiple accesses, so escape from those would not be a problem.  Would be a good place to lay up for a few days if sick or wounded. 

[Yuchi1]

^^^ This, with the operative word "use" versus "live".

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

Don't expect a bear to be perched up on a ledge that a Condor is using.  

 

 

Umm....what?  I guess that I wouldn't expect it per se, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  It's a big ol' goofy world.

 

Cotter, that ain't a bear. It's clearly a guy in a bear-suit. Zoom in and you can see the seams on the arm. Zoom in closer and you can see the tag that says "Cotton-spandex blend. Dry clean only. Made in Honduras" . ;-)

 

 

Re: caves and mines.  I could see them being used as specialized temporary shelter (read: child birth and the first couple of months post-birth).

 

.

[SWWASAS]

The subject might better be, where does Bigfoot go to hibernate. If you look at the sightings dates on the spreadsheet I put up there are not sightings in midwinter. Does BF make its own hollows to over winter or use natural ones or both? Does it overwinter above the tree line, below, or at what average elevation?

I don't really think we have any evidence that they hibernate other than lack of winter sighting reports. I was in the field yesterday all day. I did not see another person the whole day. No one but me out in the woods or parked at the trailhead. If I saw a BF I would probably mention it here but I would not put it in any data base. Once hunting season winds down, there are few people in the PNW woods just because of the constant rain. Lack of winter reports could just be lack of people out there to see them rather than evidence of hibernation. However if they do hibernate, that makes them vulnerable. Hibernating bears have been discovered by humans looking into dens to see what is in there.

[Yuchi1]

Bears hibernate in some climates, snakes do not rather, go dormant in response to the ambient temperature.  IMO, BF probably is active throughout the year as am aware of several sightings observed by hunters during the winter. One thing to consider, when the foliage (spring, summer & early fall) is basically green, whitetail deer (around here) stand out like a sore thumb with their reddish colored coat. During late winter however, the coat turns more of a greyish brown and in late winter foliage conditions unless they move, blink or wiggle an ear, they are almost unrecognizable at distances as close as twenty yards. Makes you wonder if a BF type entity couldn't do the same thing, stand there in plain sight?

[Guest mariner]

There have been numerous reports of people looking at a tree stump only to see it move and walk away. So yes, this type of behaviour is known to happen.

[Twist]

I sometimes think about this when driving Mariner.  If I'm in an area I'm not particularly familiar with and I see a large stump standing alone in a field or something I often wonder, "If I came back by here tomorrow, would that stump still be there?"