Has Bigfoot Science Stalled?

[ShadowBorn]

 

Bigfoot throws stuff when you get in its territory.

Bigfoot leaves foot prints while walking away.

Bigfoot growls and screams when you are too close.

Bigfoot prowls around camps at night and gets into things………………………..  lots more to go.

 

What are facts we don't know yet?

Those are suppositions, they are not, most assuredly, facts.

 

No, not really. They are factual and the evidence is there with most witnesses reports in most areas. Foot prints left behind and other evidence , we see this all the time in sightings and in encounters left after the event. The signs are there just not being reported in the open, maybe for protection due to an area of a group affiliated with the event.  This is the flesh and blood side of this creature that leaves this sign that no one takes notice. That's what happens when others get caught up on the un-natural that they stop looking at the natural. Science is stuck with this fact that it cannot move forward with what it is being rewarded. It has reach the top of it's curve where it can no longer go no higher until it decides. In order for science to work it must explore and in Bigfoot science it has decided to stall.

[MIB]

 

IIRC, yesterday's woo was landing a human on the moon yet now, it appears to be today's fact.

The lunar landings obeyed the known laws of physics.

 

 

Truly. 

 

OTOH, the (apocryphal?) story of the apple falling on Newton's head did not, instead, new "known laws" resulted from it.  

 

I think we should be open to the possibility that we may have to make some new discoveries before we understand the current puzzle.  

 

I don't think it costs us anything to treat certain assumption as fact for the sake of "table-top" / what-if exercises to see if they provide any insight that can be tested and validated even if the assumptions can't.   That said, I think we do have to be careful that we don't lose sight of them being assumption, not fact, when the table-top ends.   IMHO, that has been a problem.  

 

MIB

[Guest Crowlogic]

As usual I am flabbergast that the proponent/believer community places a full weight on nothing except stories and conjecture.  Bigfoot throws things they say.  I believe there was one on youtube that was typically bad quality but hey Mr Impossible Visits has pinecones landing at his feet and yet...... and yet he has no image of the thrower?  Has he ever collected one of these special projectiles and had them analyzed for odd DNA?  And oh look Barb&Gabby had a leaf placed on the door of their vehicle by a bigfoot saying thanks.  Yikes! No wonder real science runs the opposite way when bigfoot is brought up.  We have a few nice new shiny parlor tricks to polish the gloss of the myth but at the root there is still only campfire stories.   We could instruct a group of 5th graders to devise a method of making it appear as if something mysterious is inhabiting the woods and in all probability they would come up with these little things like throwing pine cones and pebbles or little stick structures.  There is a small army of people tramping the woods with go pros etc and what do we get?  Pine cones and leaves.

[georgerm]

 

IIRC, yesterday's woo was landing a human on the moon yet now, it appears to be today's fact.

The lunar landings obeyed the known laws of physics.

 

 

Physics and biology are quite different when if comes to field work but each does require repeatable observations.

 

 

Bigfoot throws stuff when you get in its territory.

Bigfoot leaves foot prints while walking away.

Bigfoot growls and screams when you are too close.

Bigfoot prowls around camps at night and gets into things………………………..  lots more to go.

 

What are facts we don't know yet?

Those are suppositions, they are not, most assuredly, facts.

 

 

 

We can agree is disagree as many scientist or philosphers do.  At one time these behaviors were suppositions or suspicions, conjectures, speculations, theories, guesses, feelings, and hunches. Supposition is too weak of a word for present bigfoot science in my opinion of course.

 

Crowlogic, far too many credible witnesses have observed these BF behaviors so let's be honest and not exaggerate to make points. BFRO weeds out the noncredible ones. Science needs credible witnesses and repeatable observations and we have it. If someone could compile these knowns or bigfoot facts, we would have a credible bigfoot science book.

 

This science book would be reliable enough to enact laws to protect bigfoot and to post warning signs in campgrounds. The PHDs may come along kicking and screaming, and some would verify these facts or knowns through well funded field work. The Jane Goodalls would come out of the woodwork.

 

 

 

"A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability—that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable careful observation or measurement (by experiments or other means).

 

Experience is the knowledge or mastery of an event or subject gained through involvement in or exposure to it.^[1] Terms in philosophy, such as "empirical knowledge" or "a posteriori knowledge," are used to refer to knowledge based on experience. A person with considerable experience in a specific field can gain a reputation as expert.The concept of experience generally refers to know-how or procedural knowledge, rather than propositional knowledge: on-the-job training rather than book-learning.

 

 

noun: supposition; plural noun: suppositions

an uncertain belief.

"they were working on the supposition that his death was murder"

synonyms: belief, surmise, idea, notion, suspicion, conjecture, speculation, inference, theory, hypothesis, postulation, guess, feeling, hunch, assumption, presumption "

Edited January 25, 2016 by georgerm

[ShadowBorn]

As usual I am flabbergast that the proponent/believer community places a full weight on nothing except stories and conjecture.  Bigfoot throws things they say.  I believe there was one on youtube that was typically bad quality but hey Mr Impossible Visits has pinecones landing at his feet and yet...... and yet he has no image of the thrower?  Has he ever collected one of these special projectiles and had them analyzed for odd DNA?  And oh look Barb&Gabby had a leaf placed on the door of their vehicle by a bigfoot saying thanks.  Yikes! No wonder real science runs the opposite way when bigfoot is brought up.  We have a few nice new shiny parlor tricks to polish the gloss of the myth but at the root there is still only campfire stories.   We could instruct a group of 5th graders to devise a method of making it appear as if something mysterious is inhabiting the woods and in all probability they would come up with these little things like throwing pine cones and pebbles or little stick structures.  There is a small army of people tramping the woods with go pros etc and what do we get?  Pine cones and leaves.

You say that it is stories and conjecture. That bigfoot throws things and does all these acts that might not seem natural to us but is natural to it. How do know this, as a collective we have all experience this at one time or another. There is no denying there, so that is not conjecture. (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information) The information is there for all to see and experience if they want.

 

Sure people might go way to far into what these creatures are capable off. As you said a leaf on a car or an acorn that drops from tree, the same goes with pine cones while one is standing under a pine cone tree. It is those little things that you can relate with that gives you an idea that people may be full of B.S. But what those certain ones that cannot be explained but can be replicated if attempted. This is what science should be , testing those theories that we all have. If you fail so what you know that it did not work and you move to the next theory. But you do not stop or give up we keep going till we find an end. If there is no science for this field then there very well should be. Because at this moment in time Bigfoot science was not even a word until now. People are on board with it by what has been happening with television .Not so much with the media and a lot had to with the hoaxing that was done to the media by certain camps that does not need to be mention.

 

Crowlogic

You at one time were on board with a living entity, have now come with disbelief. I do not blame you for what happen, But I cannot change what occurred to me personally with these creatures. No more arguments, stop the ignore I have no beef with you. I am after the truth just like you.  

[Bodhi]

 

 

 

And can we PLEASE drop all of the "woo". The "mind speak" and "portals" and the like. If sasquatch isn't a flesh and blood animal then we might was well forget science and break out the Ouija boards.

 

Nope.  Not gonna happen.  I'm after the answer, whatever it is, and I'm not going to ignore parts just because they make you uncomfortable.   Follow the facts wherever they go.   You will find the truth whatever it is.   Refusing to follow the trail is the one sure way to fail in the search. 

 

MIB

 

There seems to be only one animal / creature requiring such suspension of natural history and biological science. It's not that I'm "uncomfortable," it's that it's ridiculous to allow for such dispensation of the laws of nature in order to somehow cram bigfoot's uncanny existence into the books.

 

We may as well allow phantom or ghost wolves or bears of deceased animals to be possible, too.

 

Something about not having so open a mind as to allow one's brain to drop out.

 

 

Hello All,

It's taken some time and thought but I think as far as I go? I've nailed down the issue for me with the Forum. What? You say you didn't know I had an issue LOL. Well I do but couldn't really nail down what it is/was. First of all I respect and admire ALL the BFF members. So what's the deal then? It's that I'm tired of opinion. Opinion is great and shows that folks are thinking but I'm weary of it. Do I have opinion? Sure I do but I'm weary of that too. Imagine that weary of my own opinion. You must be weary of it too then. This place is addicting. More addicting than the field for sure which is where I should really be.

 

Sometimes there's a spark here but it very quickly sinks back into opinion. My own threads do that too. Heck, they start OUT that way. Somehow I need to do better. Sure would like to solve this Sasquatch thing but I just don't have the deep pockets to so it. I don't even have SHALLOW pockets LOL. I do have a plan that I mentioned somewhere but it's not going to happen by tomorrow that's for sure. And I can work on that and wait for any possible results for the effort. But beyond opinion I've little else to say. Without science or a body I essentially have nothing to say of any worth that will advance this subject- which is how I define worth. I have left before and come back, left and come back.......um..........oh yes,........and left and come bask some more.

 

I think the field and my book are calling and I am going to immerse myself in them until I've taken them as far as I can take them. Just as if they were full time jobs.

Good luck with the book & you are 100% on the beam. It's all air at this point and will remain until/unless something tangible is found.

[hiflier]

Hello georgerm,

 

BFRO weeds out the noncredible ones.

BFRO=Matt Moneymaker="Finding Figfoot"=BFRO=Matt Monemaker="Finding Bigfoot"=BFRO=MattMoneymaker="Finding Bigfoot"=BFRO.....ad nauseum.

It's its own circular dialogue.

Edited January 25, 2016 by hiflier

[hiflier]

Hello Bodhi,

Thank you, and I concur. Air.

[Bodhi]

We seem to be in a discussion that is running out of steam and clarity. Some of the discussion is well understood while other parts is hard to understand that is no fault of yours. It’s like a jig saw puzzle with large missing parts. Bigfoot science is a book that is still being written. We could get on track by describing what we consider to be bigfoot facts and stay away from the unknowns or woos for the time being.

So what are some bigfoot facts that is science due to observations from many sources? To be real science, we need to attach reports to each fact along with witness credibility.

 

Bigfoot throws stuff when you get in its territory.

Bigfoot leaves foot prints while walking away.

Bigfoot growls and screams when you are too close.

Bigfoot prowls around camps at night and gets into things………………………..  lots more to go.

 

What are facts we don't know yet?

The items listed may facts to you. I do not think they are universal "facts" and I don't believe that there is proof of any of them.

To my knowledge there are no videos of sasquatches throwing anything (although I've seen one where a sasquatch may be carrying something). There are claims of this behavior but there's also claims that sasquatches can leap more than a thousand feet horizontally in one big jumping movement. Is that also a fact?

Footprints casts/trackways have provided little (nothing) in the way of knowledge regarding diet,habitation,habits,range. The differences in number of toes has provided for some interesting supposition as to whether the animals are inbreeding which seems strange given that there are sightings from all of north america.

growls and screams are reported to be sure but to assign a motivation for a sound heard at night in the woods by an unseen source seems...premature. And again, it may be your personal truth but that doesn't mean it's so.

sasquatches prowl through camps at night? That's not something with which I'm aware (other than garrett's (sp?) claim down in tx). Again, your personal truth/belief may not anyone else's necessarily . Something I'd expect from a bear rather than a sasquatch but if it is a reported behavior I have to ask where are the photos (cellphone cameras are ubiquitous anymore) and where are the hair/saliva samples? If sasquatches are gnawing on pic-a-nic baskets, ala yogi bear, it seems we have some dna sample by now.

 

Science and woo do not mix. The topic of the thread is whether the science has stalled. Personally, I do not see science being used. I do see groups who claim to use science but "claiming" and actually "doing" are vastly different. And, I do not know if using science at this point really matters other than any when gathering any sample which is going to be sent out for testing.

We don't have the basics laid out to even begin science. We don't know habitat, we don't know diet, we don't know how much range is required per animal, we don't know behaviors. We do not know anything which allows us to predict where this animal (singularly or as a group) will be at any given time. Not even a general area.

IMO

If we can't use the information we have to make predictions and then test those predictions in a way which leads to success of what use is the information? We have stories, many with conflicting details, not science. 

So has the science of sasquatching stalled? Interested people are conducting their own experiments regularly, some post their work on this forum. Is it science? I don't know but it does show that interested parties are doing their own work on their own dime and that has to be seen as positive for believers.

[Yuchi1]

 

IIRC, yesterday's woo was landing a human on the moon yet now, it appears to be today's fact.

The lunar landings obeyed the known laws of physics.

 

Not referring to the end result rather, the perception held by some prior to the effort.

[Guest Crowlogic]

 

As usual I am flabbergast that the proponent/believer community places a full weight on nothing except stories and conjecture.  Bigfoot throws things they say.  I believe there was one on youtube that was typically bad quality but hey Mr Impossible Visits has pinecones landing at his feet and yet...... and yet he has no image of the thrower?  Has he ever collected one of these special projectiles and had them analyzed for odd DNA?  And oh look Barb&Gabby had a leaf placed on the door of their vehicle by a bigfoot saying thanks.  Yikes! No wonder real science runs the opposite way when bigfoot is brought up.  We have a few nice new shiny parlor tricks to polish the gloss of the myth but at the root there is still only campfire stories.   We could instruct a group of 5th graders to devise a method of making it appear as if something mysterious is inhabiting the woods and in all probability they would come up with these little things like throwing pine cones and pebbles or little stick structures.  There is a small army of people tramping the woods with go pros etc and what do we get?  Pine cones and leaves.

You say that it is stories and conjecture. That bigfoot throws things and does all these acts that might not seem natural to us but is natural to it. How do know this, as a collective we have all experience this at one time or another. There is no denying there, so that is not conjecture. (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information) The information is there for all to see and experience if they want.

 

Sure people might go way to far into what these creatures are capable off. As you said a leaf on a car or an acorn that drops from tree, the same goes with pine cones while one is standing under a pine cone tree. It is those little things that you can relate with that gives you an idea that people may be full of B.S. But what those certain ones that cannot be explained but can be replicated if attempted. This is what science should be , testing those theories that we all have. If you fail so what you know that it did not work and you move to the next theory. But you do not stop or give up we keep going till we find an end. If there is no science for this field then there very well should be. Because at this moment in time Bigfoot science was not even a word until now. People are on board with it by what has been happening with television .Not so much with the media and a lot had to with the hoaxing that was done to the media by certain camps that does not need to be mention.

 

Crowlogic

You at one time were on board with a living entity, have now come with disbelief. I do not blame you for what happen, But I cannot change what occurred to me personally with these creatures. No more arguments, stop the ignore I have no beef with you. I am after the truth just like you.  

 

Throwing pine cones isn't an unnatural feat for an animal with the biology that allows it to throw.  The problem is with the "researchers" who are presenting this stuff endlessly yet cannot produce the animal doing it.  Throwing pine cones at a person with a video camera wanting to get the viewers attention is something an attention seeker will do to keep interest alive in what they are selling the viewer.  Do I believe that the guy having pine cones tossed at him has an accomplice.  Indeed I do the potential accomplice has been featured in his videos before.  Placing a leaf on a car door does not require another person it just requires the leaf, the car and the camera.  

[BigTreeWalker]

I had the same problem with the pinecones being thrown as Crow did. The person filming is sitting there pointing his camera past a tree and into the sky. Then stating where the cones are coming from. You can hear them falling all around him as he sits under a fir tree. Then he pans the camera around and low and behold there's a squirrel running by with a cone in its mouth. This is typical squirrel behavior, cut the cones loose, drop them on the ground, then go down and pick them up. This is the usual that needs to be eliminated before we can even begin to proceed to the unusual. If you come across something happening that can't be explained through the usual means then you may be onto something. But remember, coincidence does occur quite often, rocks do roll down hill, things do fall out of trees, and trees do tip over by themselves occasionally for no apparent reason. Until we look and try to figure out the cause it doesn't do us our anyone else any good to go directly to supposition.

[norseman]

Most cannot produce the animal because that simply is not their intentions, and they are not geared up for that. Thats assuming of course that there is an animal out there to produce at all.

The science we have tried to employ is crunching sighting data to up our odds in getting ahead of the creature (when, where, elevation, etc) Along with identifying seasonal plants such as skunk cabbage and huckleberries and laying in wait. I've tried organizing bigger expeditions in the past but its very tough. Most of our stuff is single individuals or small groups going out in a attempt to produce one for science.

And I think woo or even human hybrid theories are born out of desperation, because we havent produce one. So they must be X,Y or Z in order to defeat mankind thus far.

[ShadowBorn]

 

And I think woo or even human hybrid theories are born out of desperation, because we havent produce one. So they must be X,Y or Z in order to defeat mankind thus far.

Norseman

Can you explain why the Human hybrid theories are born out of desperation? I do not understand why you would word it that way since not one has not been place on the table yet.

 

Maybe  and remember this is my opinion, back in the old times when they were shot , they seen some thing in them that they feared. I am positive that the first one that was ever shot back in the day was studied. But really and truly ask your self what would you do if you were the first back in those days to shoot one. Back in those days when there was no internet or form of telecommunication. Would you not have studied it, looked it over and tried to figure out what you have just shot.. Maybe even brag about what you have done like everyone else does with a nice buck. 

 

But some how in those old articles the word man is some how involve, so science can take on many forms. Just as you use data to predict where this animal might be ( I say might be since it has not proven so far) .

[Yuchi1]

IMO, desperation is the constant companion of the BF hunters/killers as it hasn't worked (officially) in ~49 years.