Has Bigfoot Science Stalled?

[SWWASAS]

Norseman:     "Picture a bomb going off in the immediate area of habitation."       Now that is a new method that I do not think has been brought up before.      The darting advocates will love it.     An aerosol bomb filled with a sleeping agent.    Could be done from a helicopter.   Locate BF camp, bomb said camp,  come in,   take samples, measure, photograph, look for tools and artifacts,  then leave before the BF wake up with a big headache.    The Russians did that with a terrorist takeover of a concert or something like that a few years ago but they killed some people doing it.    At least their intent was to save some lives.    Same problem as with darting is getting the dose right to put to sleep without killing. 
 

Edited January 26, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[Incorrigible1]

 

Imagine a discovery of a creature that is able to illuminate its eyes at night. A creature that can see in total darkness with no light at all. A creature that can tap some one on the shoulder and when they turn around never see who did it. Who knows about their hearing and all the other stuff that goes with them. Yes I can see science doing exactly this:" requiring a secret log-in to access " files on this creatures existence. We do not need science to stall since science has done it on it's own already.

Ay yi yi yi yi. The pain.

[norseman]

Tool creation requires more than just a high intelligence. In primates, it also requires hands that have dexterity or precision. In theory, it's totally possible for an animal to have human-like intelligence and at the same time not be able to craft tools like spears.

Absolutely not. Because brain development needs dexteritous hands and vice versa. As one grows so does the other.

Big brains are expensive caloric wise, so where is the upside to feeding a giant brain without hands that can build things that increases your species success rate? None.

Norseman:     "Picture a bomb going off in the immediate area of habitation."       Now that is a new method that I do not think has been brought up before.      The darting advocates will love it.     An aerosol bomb filled with a sleeping agent.    Could be done from a helicopter.   Locate BF camp, bomb said camp,  come in,   take samples, measure, photograph, look for tools and artifacts,  then leave before the BF wake up with a big headache.    The Russians did that with a terrorist takeover of a concert or something like that a few years ago but they killed some people doing it.    At least their intent was to save some lives.    Same problem as with darting is getting the dose right to put to sleep without killing.

What I meant was....is that Homo Erectus were dirty campers, easily tracked and identified.

[Bodhi]

 

 

Quote Norseman, 25 Jan 2016 - 5:51 p.m.

"But your Gorillas comparison has shot you in the foot.

"Because the poor hapless Gorillas are still being slaughtered like cattle 150 years later!

"But a Sasquatch skull would stick a fork in skeptics once and for all."

 

I beg your pardon, Norseman; I wasn't clear. But you've made my point for me.

 

Gorillas started bein' shot by men with guns 150 years ago. They're still bein' shot with guns today. ...

They didn't learn to hide from men with guns.

 

According to stories that I've read, fiction or fact, Bigfoot was shot by men with guns more than 150 years ago and

even up until the early 20th century. ... But not lately?  Instead nowadays, they're more likely to be shot with cameras. 

But I keep reading that Bf, most of them, are camera-wise and avoid those too.

 

My point is that Bigfoot learned what the Gorillas have been unable to learn. This may show that Bigfoot reasons  

and learns from experience.

 

But if Bigfoot can reason-learn-adapt, why doesn't he make tools?

 

That one's easy, assuming his brain is similar to ours but not identical. In us, left & right brain functions are different. To greatly over-simplify, the left brain is analytical; the right brain is intuitive.

 

I suggest that Bigfoot is as intelligent as we are in right brain functions. But he never got around to developing much

left brain function. Or perhaps his left brain developed differently than ours. 

 

He may see us as an unwelcome guest in the woods or even a serious enemy. That didn't motivate him to invent the spear.

He's well able to throw rocks and large chunks of wood.

 

As for sticking a fork in skeptics, I suspect they're a bit too right-brained to get it.

 

(edited by Oonjerah for spacing.)

Just a few things as we seemed to have strayed off the topic of whether the science has stalled.

I believe the whole left brain/right brain thing has been shown to be mostly incorrect (sort of like that "we only use 10% of our brain capacity trope").

Accepting your premise that sasquatches were hunted by man and have thus learned to hide from man; Why then are the majority of reports found civilization-adjacent? Why does sasquatch seem to have a propensity for walking near roads, hiking trails, campgrounds (as per geotherm in this thread). I see not internal logic in sasquatch reports, does it avoid man but not understand what a campsite is, or a road, or vehicles? This inconsistency is yet another reason I feel this is a cultural phenomenon rather than a physical animal.

Gorilla, in the vast majority, have consistent behavior within it's species, as does every other physical animal. Why doesn't sasquatch, if it's flesh and blood. (no woo please. this is a science thread).

 

 

Now, this is a great science question that needs an answer along with many others before sasquatch science is unstalled. We don't have these answers and we can only suppose or theorize.

 

1. What comes to mind is some bigfoots need easy prey such as chickens, cows, or dogs in order to survive.

2. Some bigfoots such as juveniles or out casts have been pushed out of remote habitats by more dominant clans.

3. Bigfoots can't avoid roads and other human elements in order to keep up their migration pattern. This leads to question 3. a. Does bigfoot migrate?

 

It becomes obvious we have more questions than answers.

 

One documentary on TV showed a credentialed biologist studying Snow Leopard in Asia, and he made a great blind. He spent months and months in the cold until he got great videos of the creature.

 

Saw that, I think it was that Planet Earth doc. Really stupendous footage. sorry OT....

[norseman]

The trade off for fine motor skills is losing strength. A chimp is as strong as two men, but he cannot tie a knot to fish with.

How strong is a Sasquatch reported to be? What can we extrapolate from that?

As far as nature goes its development did not reach that point so the chimp is what it is. Just like we are what we are as humans and the way we have developed. These creatures are stuck in a time where their development have not reach ours as nature has intended. IMO  We can teach chimps to perform acts and they do have a capable brain to perform these acts. This all was performed by science and understood by scientist.

 

Was not  experiments done on the concept that this creature was an Ape or even a Chimp of some sort. But nothing was proven by those acts, there fore more thought needed to be placed. See, this is science being performed in its most simplest form. One idea to the next until a solution to the problem is found is science. Go from one solution to the next until you find the right formula that works. Taking note of every step that gets you closer ,moving forward, two step back, three steps forward. Science 

 

 

Science" in not some all-encompassing bureaucracy, requiring a secret log-in to access. It's a process, and one rarely used by BF advocates

To some it may be when money is involve, Imagine a discovery of a creature that is able to illuminate its eyes at night. A creature that can see in total darkness with no light at all. A creature that can tap some one on the shoulder and when they turn around never see who did it. Who knows about their hearing and all the other stuff that goes with them. Yes I can see science doing exactly this:" requiring a secret log-in to access " files on this creatures existence. We do not need science to stall since science has done it on it's own already.

 

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Just want to add that I do not have the knowledge of animal behavior nor do I have years studying Biology. At this point  People who have studied ancient humans and how we lived back then is needed. I would say a behaviorist of humans if there is such a thing would be needed to understand these creatures.IMO

I'm not a anthropologist but I am a follower of anthropology.....and all I can say based on what we know right now from the fossil record?

Is that Sasquatch does not exhibit Homo like traits based on reports.

If they were holding up picnicers in parks with hand axes or spears and making off with picnic baskets? Or they were surrounded herds of Elk and killing them with spears? I would think differently......

They act based on reports much more like a Orangutan. Shy, elusive loners.

[Bodhi]

I'd like to comment that the 'running from man' isn't an all or nothing premise.

Many other wild animals that have learned to fear humans are seen around human populated areas.

Wolves and coyotes one of the more reclusive canines often are spotted in urban areas.  Heck, a coyote will hang out around farms - so long as nobody is outside.  Crack a door or a window and its gone.

I also think that attributing the intelligence to a human is wrong, I think attributing the intelligence to a gorilla is wrong.  What we're dealing with here is something in-between.  Something with a definite cognizance, but not to the level of tool building.  Even if they didn't 'need' tools per se, I would surmise there would have been some rudimentary incorporation of some form of tool making.

 

And norse - of course we can't break the neck of a bull elk, but we can wrestle a bull bovine to the ground and hold it there.  Of course, some training is required.  :-)  Just wanted to mention that.

Yes, and we know this because we have ample physical evidence of their presence, their carcasses along roads, and clear, unambiguous, pictures and video. I'll say it again. If the range is, basically, all of north america AND some of them hang out near civilization AND still nothing near scientific evidence? There is something wrong with the logic of that argument.

[norseman]

Agreed.

There is a social phenom going on, because this creature is not as prolific as reported. Simply because it is not logical.

Edited January 26, 2016 by norseman

[Bodhi]

 

^^^^ You and Meldrum seem to be on the same page with what BF is and is not because of the lack of constructed tools.   I am leaning that way but until we examine one of their dens, caves, or wherever they spend time in during the winter, I think that it is too early to make the call.     If they use fire it is in the winter.    If they use tools they fabricate, they would be found in their winter habitat if they even have fixed winter quarters.    Witness accounts rarely mention BF carrying anything but prey.   So Meldrum and you are likely correct.    Contrary to what we would surmise from early humans,   fabricated tools would be extremely valuable things.  Passed down generation to generation.   And only discarded when they were so broken they were no longer functional.    Much of what we find with early humans might be just because we have the propensity to fight and kill each other.   Leaving casualties and tools or weapons where they were struck down.    Certainly things of value would be collected by the victors, if they could be located before moving out of enemy territory.    Human history is one of marauding conquest, much of that hit and run, before the locals locate the marauders and retaliate.    We knew little about early European humans, until caves were excavated, and even then the physical artifacts associated with them was largely unknown.    The so called Iceman,  found melting out of the snow in the Alps,  gave us the best picture of humans of the time near the ice age.     Much of what we know now about their clothing, weapons, diet etc were gleaned from that one well preserved body.     Who knows, maybe someone can find a BF melting out of a glacier someplace and explode our knowledge about them too?

Yes, but again, what can we extrapolate on what we have not found?

Lets say for example that tribes of Homo Erectus were still extant on our national forests. What sort of evidence could we expect to find of their passing? Central fire rings? Heavy cave occupation? Charred animal bones and marrow excavation? Discarded flakes from stone tool manufacture? Defacation? Dead family members?

Picture a bomb going off in the immediate area of habitation.

Do we find this with Sasquatch?

 

The closest analog I can think of for your bomb thought experiment was when Kathy Strain was on the bigfoot show talking about a huge burn area which revealed a large number of native american sites which were previously undiscovered. I think the host asked if she saw any sasquatch related things and I'm pretty sure the answer was no. In any event it was a very interesting interview and the things they were finding sounded very cool. I can't recall which fire it was but possibly that big Yellowstone fire awhile back. I think she'd chat about if if asked, I"m banned from the nawac thread for unexplained reasons but you might want to ask her Norse.

[norseman]

Cool thanks.

I just watched this...pretty cool too.

http://www.canada.com/technology/Scrap+European+iron+unearths+year+Canadian+mystery/6833185/story.html

[Bodhi]

that is a COOL article. gotta figure that axe head was serious business for the people to whom it was given.

 

So this will fundamentally change how science views things which is exactly what excites scientists. Those folks who believe that science covers up thing which "up end" current thinking never seem to get that. This will open up many new research opportunities, new things to learn. Scientists live for this sort of find. Very very cool of you to share this one, thanks.

[ShadowBorn]

 

Picture a bomb going off in the immediate area of habitation

You are not going to find old fire rings or manufactured tools made of stone or bones. No IMO there lives is way simple then that in the way they survive. We keep looking things at a human perspective and not in a primitive perspective. If we look at humans in our past and how they have survived other species of its kind. You can see that we survived because we were given the intelligence to do so. Science has shown this to be so and it is in our history.

 

The only history we have of these creatures is what is being reported. Yes , some can be outlandish but of what we know about our history a lot was outlandish back then. Now look at where we are at. All this was done through science and people who choose to speak up knowing very well they may be prosecuted for heresy back in the day.  Yet they felt that they were right so they spoke up and proved it. Is there such a thing as Bigfoot science ? No, there is not. There is just science and that is all there is and there are just a few who are professionals in the field of science who are going after this elusive creature. The rest are just amateurs who have no idea what they are doing to be effective in this field.

 

The ones who are effective are not going to come out and say they are. They will not let no one in since it will shut down what ever it is that they are having with these creatures. Even though these creatures may not show art in fire construction , tool making or even making shelter. They are intelligent enough to investigate us human in a evasive way. IMO Man once lived this way at one time as well , where we all lived like the animals. Science has shown this and we do this every time we go hunting. There is a primitive side to us that is in our Genes. These creatures are not developed like us , so we can only speculate. 

 

If I was to guess, science would say that these creatures do not stay in one place at any given time. They do not need heat since they do not need borders to keep them in one place. Food is abundant for them since it is all around them when they need it. There is no need for protection since they really have no enemies other then themselves. Reproduction is not a problem since this is a normal process in all creatures that walk the earth, in order for a species to survive they need to reproduce. This is just keeping the woo out of the picture. The woo comes when there is a creature that is placed on a table ready to be examined and from then comes the fun part. Understanding them ,how is it that they survive and are they part of us. This is where I am leading too that scares people and science. The what if they are that that one part of our missing link. How will we react to that after all we were taught. It would all change since we would then be asking who or what made it ? I am stuck with that question right now and it has a very big impact on me and how I view our world. I might be a joke to you all but these creatures have made a big impact on me. I will not change my views nor the way I believe to what I believe to what be to be true. Like I have said science has made an impact on me , unless science decides to move forward with what is known then Bigfoot science has stalled. 

[norseman]

^^^^^^

my statement you quoted was in reference to Homo Erectus. The earliest "human" ancestor..... If Sasquatch lives more primitive than they would?

What does that tell us?

[Yuchi1]

IMO, the making of tools may be correlated to the fact that once an abode (camp, structure(s), etc.) is established as well as implement(s) creation, you make yourself a target and therefore easier to locate. Being feral would likely render the best mode of non-discovery. However, based upon my own experiences, I believe these entities have a natural curiosity that has been used in some instances by humans to facilitate contact, in varying degrees.

 

Examples include the now infamous Louisiana Hunt wherein a deer carcass was successfully used to lure one into a shooting situation. Background information includes the hunt organizer had been placing various food items out for years in order to facilitate a shot. It worked except (IMO) the shooter let his own hubris overcome pragmatic action resulting in a wounded entity instead of a dead body. The one thing that entire fiasco proved is a long-term effort was successful in furnishing the opportunity, notwithstanding that everything went to FUBAR, after the shot.

 

The Colyer and McClurkin (NAWAC) shooting (i.e., Echo) Incidents also (IMO) has parallel to the above event as well.  As a active participant in the aforementioned (Louisiana) event, it is hard to describe the flood of adrenalin and emotions in play during that night. In some ways it was staring at your own mortality, eye-to-eye, and in others, a rush the likes of which, never before experienced.

 

On the Rogers county, Oklahoma property the "Cookout" episode revealed again how that natural curiosity could be employed against them. What we believe to have been the alpha male (as observed by others in previous incidents) inexplicably came to within a few yards of our position, 2X within a couple hours. It was the second encounter when Todd actually gave footchase that subsequently precipitated the belligerent action(s) of slamming down the towerstand and hurling the rock at us. This indicated these things could get PO'd at us enough to destroy human built property and land lethal capability stones within feet of our position but stop short of deploying lethal force upon us.

 

IMO, these are F&B entities that possess a level of intelligence that while it can be exploited in some instances, far exceeds what many are willing to give them credit. 

 

Most battles/wars are/were lost because one side woefully underestimated the other.

 

In this instance, we've been "at war" for ~49 years and yet most participants still remain "in the rear with the gear" because they haven't a clue as to where the front line is actually located.

[norseman]

Nothing in your post screams out human like intelligence.

Being lured into the deer bait is a good example of that and so is slamming a 1400 lbs tree stand over.

A) The promise of food can over ride caution for them even in the most dire situations.

B ) They possess great strength (like a bear) which is not represented in the genus homo anywhere.

[SWWASAS]

Speaking of tools, look at this picture of a glyph which was placed when I was present.    It is the only one I can be reasonably sure was done by other than humans because of my presence at the time.   I was never out of sight of the stump as it was behind my back for a period of over an hour and a half.    At any time, if I had turned around, the stump would have been visible.   And I did turn around every few minutes to use a big root ball beyond the stump to maintain a bearing away from the stump.     It was not only visible but more visible because I was going up sloping terrain and looking down on it.     Those rock shards were sharp.    They are almost tool like in nature.    I looked around for some distance around the location and could not find any fractured rock which to pick up and simply place there.      So the rock either had to have been found and carried from some distance away, or it was fabricated closer from the abundant round rock in the area.       The shards look very much like rock scrapers attributed to ancient humans which are used for scraping meat off of bones.    The symmetry seems to suggest fabrication.  If not fabrication then careful selection.   Tools or art I do not know.    The sharp edges as you can see from the photograph, are clean and I do not think they had been used as a scraper.   That probably is a good argument against their use as a scraper.   However one would not think something scraper like in form would not be fabricated unless it had some use.