Has Bigfoot Science Stalled?

[Guest WesT]

^^^^^^That pretty much sums things up.  

 

You know a tribal leader at a BF conference said something that has bothered me since I heard it.    When he was asked if BF were dangerous,  he told some tribal history, related to abductions of women etc.  Then he said it is not the big people in the woods (BF) you need to worry about it is the little people.    Anyone heard NA legends about little people?    Remote tribes of little people are every bit as interesting to me as big ones since we do have skeletal/ fossil remains of such people in some parts of the world.   

A Cherokee Medicine Man is required to learn medicine from the little people, that inhabit caves, in order to become a Medicine Man. Google Cherokee Medicine Man little people. Interesting reading.

[Yuchi1]

Norseman, your article doesn't address the mitochondria results from over a hundred samples, and like you, simply assumes contamination, or what ever suits their own interpretation without any study of the actual evidence.

It is unfortunate that so many of those samples are not available for independent study, but that's not the case for all of them.

Where modern sapiens, neanderthal and denisovans are distinguished, it started in the mitochondria. It wasn't there in the bigfoot samples submitted to ketchum.

If the hybridization continued from the time of denisovans, it would be possible that a single mitochondrial lineage prevailed. Meaning multiple human ones, because the crossing never stopped.

 

^^^This.

[norseman]

Norseman, your article doesn't address the mitochondria results from over a hundred samples, and like you, simply assumes contamination, or what ever suits their own interpretation without any study of the actual evidence.

It is unfortunate that so many of those samples are not available for independent study, but that's not the case for all of them.

Where modern sapiens, neanderthal and denisovans are distinguished, it started in the mitochondria. It wasn't there in the bigfoot samples submitted to ketchum.

If the hybridization continued from the time of denisovans, it would be possible that a single mitochondrial lineage prevailed. Meaning multiple human ones, because the crossing never stopped.

Yes it does.

The problem with your mitochondrial DNA? Is that most samples were European, and some African. Which supports contamination versus native stories of bigfoots paternal x creature packing off Indian maidens in north america 13000 years ago.

And consider this for a moment. Every hybridization we know of has the smaller species population going extinct and certain Homo population carrying a small percentage of the donor DNA around like Neanderthals and Denisovians.

When have we ever had a cross breeding result in a new species that can support themselves independently? Nature doesnt work that way, although animal husbandry does, such as mules.

Whomever keeps the off spring presumably the maternal side, that half breed's bloodline is going to become diluted with each generation until its indescernable from its mothers side, except through genetic testing. It doesnt spawn a new species of beings.

[southernyahoo]

Better talk to Disotell about that, he says some species of primate are speciated through hybridization. Meaning they have a maternal lineage from another species.

I don't know where you get the idea that one or the other has to go extinct, but it's apparent that mitochondrial testing wouldn't work to distinguish species in the scenario above.

Its possible that bigfoot would retain certain mutations adapted for their environment and have an equally small contribution in nudna from us, while the rest is virtually identical for other ancestral reasons.

If the crossing never stopped, the mitochondrial DNA is constantly being updated, and would confirm the native tales.

Edited February 26, 2016 by southernyahoo

[Guest freelygiven]

Thank you again, norseman. The Ars Technica article was a great, dispassionate review of Ketchum's work. Her leaps of logic and completely unfounded conclusions were not obvious to me as I first looked into the subject, but they surrendered to their inquiry.

 

As I read the article, I found myself wondering about her motive myself. "She's seen one, and she's desperate for them to be recognized," I said to myself. Come to find out, the last segment of the article addressed that very subject. The article quotes her as saying, "I've seen one." She said, "All we wanted to do with the paper was to prove there was something novel out there..." but that being beyond the reach of the evidence, they made the quantum leap from that to identifying its hypothetical subject specifically as "bigfoot." Worse yet, publishing that unscientific if not irrational conclusion only adds to the folly. She says, "...I'm not going to try to make them fit a scientific model when it doesn't." In spite of that she tried, but it can't. Unfortunately, we have no model for bf.

Love is blind, I guess, but this only detracts from any valid bf science in the end.

[SWWASAS]

  

^^^^^^That pretty much sums things up.  

 

You know a tribal leader at a BF conference said something that has bothered me since I heard it.    When he was asked if BF were dangerous,  he told some tribal history, related to abductions of women etc.  Then he said it is not the big people in the woods (BF) you need to worry about it is the little people.    Anyone heard NA legends about little people?    Remote tribes of little people are every bit as interesting to me as big ones since we do have skeletal/ fossil remains of such people in some parts of the world.   

A Cherokee Medicine Man is required to learn medicine from the little people, that inhabit caves, in order to become a Medicine Man. Google Cherokee Medicine Man little people. Interesting reading.

 

The Cherokee themselves talk about the little people and medicine in their tribal website.  http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/Culture/General/CherokeeMedicineMenandWomen.aspx I found another reference to the people who lived in Cherokee lands prior to the Cherokee arriving.     The Cherokee described them as moon eyed people who only came out at night because they could not see in the daytime.         Sound familiar?      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_history

Edited February 26, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[ShadowBorn]

 

Norseman, your article doesn't address the mitochondria results from over a hundred samples, and like you, simply assumes contamination, or what ever suits their own interpretation without any study of the actual evidence.

It is unfortunate that so many of those samples are not available for independent study, but that's not the case for all of them.

Where modern sapiens, neanderthal and denisovans are distinguished, it started in the mitochondria. It wasn't there in the bigfoot samples submitted to ketchum.

If the hybridization continued from the time of denisovans, it would be possible that a single mitochondrial lineage prevailed. Meaning multiple human ones, because the crossing never stopped.

Yes it does.

The problem with your mitochondrial DNA? Is that most samples were European, and some African. Which supports contamination versus native stories of bigfoots paternal x creature packing off Indian maidens in north america 13000 years ago.

And consider this for a moment. Every hybridization we know of has the smaller species population going extinct and certain Homo population carrying a small percentage of the donor DNA around like Neanderthals and Denisovians.

When have we ever had a cross breeding result in a new species that can support themselves independently? Nature doesnt work that way, although animal husbandry does, such as mules.

Whomever keeps the off spring presumably the maternal side, that half breed's bloodline is going to become diluted with each generation until its indescernable from its mothers side, except through genetic testing. It doesnt spawn a new species of beings.

 

Well what I would like to say is that we do not know squat but what has been found in the ground and then we speculate. All these events took place some 50000 years ago and we are trying to figure out how they lived back then, when it was all about survival. If there was a hybridization then the species would have to have matched in some way and become a new species. It is not like saying, that nature will mix a monkey with a frog, or vice versa. It would have to be modified for the reaction to take place or be breed.

 

DNA is getting to a point right now where one can order a baby the way they want too, and that is scary for my self. Not sure how scary that is for others but it is to worry. So I cannot see where there would be a problem with this creatures DNA, unless the DNA has a unknown that is not in the Gen Bank. If it is not added to the Gen Bank then it should be so that it may be matched with other samples that may be tested . Even if there is that .1% that does not match with any other species on earth it should be added to the Gen Bank. Two or three samples from different areas  with the same results is not contamination. But it should have been looked at further. It is almost like humans with pig blood, oops! I mean human blood sorry.

[norseman]

Better talk to Disotell about that, he says some species of primate are speciated through hybridization. Meaning they have a maternal lineage from another species.

I don't know where you get the idea that one or the other has to go extinct, but it's apparent that mitochondrial testing wouldn't work to distinguish species in the scenario above.

Its possible that bigfoot would retain certain mutations adapted for their environment and have an equally small contribution in nudna from us, while the rest is virtually identical for other ancestral reasons.

If the crossing never stopped, the mitochondrial DNA is constantly being updated, and would confirm the native tales.

Except for the fact of course that the majority of the mitochondrial DNA is European and not Native American.

Thats a big swim for a Bigfoot in NA 13000 years ago.

[Bodhi]

 

Better talk to Disotell about that, he says some species of primate are speciated through hybridization. Meaning they have a maternal lineage from another species.

I don't know where you get the idea that one or the other has to go extinct, but it's apparent that mitochondrial testing wouldn't work to distinguish species in the scenario above.

Its possible that bigfoot would retain certain mutations adapted for their environment and have an equally small contribution in nudna from us, while the rest is virtually identical for other ancestral reasons.

If the crossing never stopped, the mitochondrial DNA is constantly being updated, and would confirm the native tales.

Except for the fact of course that the majority of the mitochondrial DNA is European and not Native American.

Thats a big swim for a Bigfoot in NA 13000 years ago.

 

lulz, you made me spit soda on my keyboard....  

[southernyahoo]

 

Better talk to Disotell about that, he says some species of primate are speciated through hybridization. Meaning they have a maternal lineage from another species.

I don't know where you get the idea that one or the other has to go extinct, but it's apparent that mitochondrial testing wouldn't work to distinguish species in the scenario above.

Its possible that bigfoot would retain certain mutations adapted for their environment and have an equally small contribution in nudna from us, while the rest is virtually identical for other ancestral reasons.

If the crossing never stopped, the mitochondrial DNA is constantly being updated, and would confirm the native tales.

Except for the fact of course that the majority of the mitochondrial DNA is European and not Native American.

Thats a big swim for a Bigfoot in NA 13000 years ago.

 

 

I don't think Ketchum wanted to be too alarming and I think you are still missing what I'm saying. We Europeans arrived here roughly 400 years ago, and the natives are or were saying their women were taken by BF. If that had been the norm past and present, then it didnt have to happen 13,000 years ago, no swimming necessary. Haven't you wondered why Paulides became so interested in missing persons 411? She gave an (no earlier than ) date.

 

That doesnt give much time for the Native maternal line to be vanquished, but looking at the proportion of native maternal lines vs European in this country today, it might not need much time.

 

 

I seriously hope you find some samples Norse, and I hope you've taken some notes on what you should do with them. I just hope you can share the results as they are available. I'll try not to be too snarky as you walk down Ketchum avenue.

[norseman]

So let me ask you this southern yahoo...if your right and Bigfoot cannot be classified through DNA?

What are you doing here? Whats the point of any of this for you now?

Edited February 27, 2016 by norseman

[georgerm]

 

 

Better talk to Disotell about that, he says some species of primate are speciated through hybridization. Meaning they have a maternal lineage from another species.

I don't know where you get the idea that one or the other has to go extinct, but it's apparent that mitochondrial testing wouldn't work to distinguish species in the scenario above.

Its possible that bigfoot would retain certain mutations adapted for their environment and have an equally small contribution in nudna from us, while the rest is virtually identical for other ancestral reasons.

If the crossing never stopped, the mitochondrial DNA is constantly being updated, and would confirm the native tales.

Except for the fact of course that the majority of the mitochondrial DNA is European and not Native American.

Thats a big swim for a Bigfoot in NA 13000 years ago.

 

 

I don't think Ketchum wanted to be too alarming and I think you are still missing what I'm saying. We Europeans arrived here roughly 400 years ago, and the natives are or were saying their women were taken by BF. If that had been the norm past and present, then it didnt have to happen 13,000 years ago, no swimming necessary. Haven't you wondered why Paulides became so interested in missing persons 411? She gave an (no earlier than ) date.

 

That doesnt give much time for the Native maternal line to be vanquished, but looking at the proportion of native maternal lines vs European in this country today, it might not need much time.

 

 

I seriously hope you find some samples Norse, and I hope you've taken some notes on what you should do with them. I just hope you can share the results as they are available. I'll try not to be too snarky as you walk down Ketchum avenue.

 

 

 

In my opinion you and Norse have carried on a very civil and informative discussion that's moved the science clock forward. Seems like Norse would appreciate Ketchum more since she is trying to get a grip on bigfoot like the rest of us. We are all on the same team.

 

There are recent reports of bigfoots mating with Native American women as horrid as it sounds. A Russian writer claims that Russian men have mated with Almasty or the Russian bigfoot. Zana was supposed to be half human and half bigfoot.

 

If this is true then it's happened ever since Native Americans arrived. So are you saying that if this has been going on for twelve thousand years, then Melba's results make more sense? This is starting to make sense since the bigfoots sketched for Paulides books were very human looking. I will try to upload some pictures if I can find them. These bigfoots lived around the lower Klamath Indian villages where they stated bigfoots kidnapped and mated with their women. What a terrible event. That would cause massive hunts to kill bigfoots. 

 

 

Source: Pravda and needs more research  http://minmysteries.weebly.com/are-russian-female-bigfoot-looking-for-human-mates.html

It seems that there is a shortage of male Bigfoot in Russia (Known to locals as the Almasty), and the females of the species have been looking for human companions. In the town of Elbrus, in Northern Caucasus, residents have reported an unusual number of sightings of the creature, most of them encounters with females, mostly by men, who have hinted at flirtation.

In the remote settlement it is a very common occurrence to see the large mythical creature in, and around, the town itself. It is reported that every resident has seen the legendary Almasty at least once in their lifetime.

“There are many deserted barns over there with boulders and woods around. They most often spot the Almasty there. They come to town from there,†local resident Adelgery Tilov said.

It is also common for the towns male population to get "friendly" with the female Almasty, something that the local women have come to accept.

[norseman]

Georgerm;

In my opinion you and Norse have carried on a very civil and informative discussion that's moved the science clock forward. Seems like Norse would appreciate Ketchum more since she is trying to get a grip on bigfoot like the rest of us. We are all on the same team.

------------------------------

We dont need the likes of her on the team. She gives the whole subject a bad name, because of fraud, incompetence and being downright crazy. Dogmen? Alien Star Child? Hello?

If we want to be taken seriously by the scientific community? Then we need to flog the Melba Ketchum's away from our midst. We need solid professional people in our corner. If we think Sasquatch is a primate? Then we need geneticists who work with primate DNA every day. And we need scientists who build a hypothesis based on the evidence and test it vigorously. Instead of tweaking the evidence to support their pre conceived notions.

Southern Yahoo and others on here have swallowed a bunch of Ketchum kool aid. This isnt the first time I've encountered this mindset. It makes no sense to me but I suppose this whole subject makes little sense. To say that an animal cannot be placed on the tree of life through DNA is very odd to me. I know SY contributed to the Ketchum DNA study and I respect him for that. It's the people doing the hard work in the field that keeps this thing alive. But lets not double down on a rotten hand......lets ask for a new hand.

Edited February 27, 2016 by norseman

[georgerm]

Georgerm;

In my opinion you and Norse have carried on a very civil and informative discussion that's moved the science clock forward. Seems like Norse would appreciate Ketchum more since she is trying to get a grip on bigfoot like the rest of us. We are all on the same team.

------------------------------

We dont need the likes of her on the team. She gives the whole subject a bad name, because of fraud, incompetence and being downright crazy. Dogmen? Alien Star Child? Hello?

If we want to be taken seriously by the scientific community? Then we need to flog the Melba Ketchum's away from our midst. We need solid professional people in our corner. If we think Sasquatch is a primate? Then we need geneticists who work with primate DNA every day. And we need scientists who build a hypothesis based on the evidence and test it vigorously. Instead of tweaking the evidence to support their pre conceived notions.

Southern Yahoo and others on here have swallowed a bunch of Ketchum kool aid. This isnt the first time I've encountered this mindset. It makes no sense to me but I suppose this whole subject makes little sense. To say that an animal cannot be placed on the tree of life through DNA is very odd to me. I know SY contributed to the Ketchum DNA study and I respect him for that. It's the people doing the hard work in the field that keeps this thing alive. But lets not double down on a rotten hand......lets ask for a new hand.

 

 

The geneticist are probably afraid of professional opinions when people find out they are testing bigfoot DNA. How can we get more to come forward for all to answer? Do you and others on the forum think the bigfoots mated with humans, and this is why the DNA comes back all human?

 

This fact that bigfoot DNA studies have not put a fork in bigfoot DNA uncertainty is puzzling. Thanks for the fork expression. A nononsense and conclusive way to put a notion. 

 

Thanks for posting the DNA reports. I waded through them and gradually am picking up the DNA song and dance. It has a humbling effect.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

Bigfoot DNA would not be human just by looking at Patty.

What would be helpful is if they can get DNA from the Hobbit discovery,

though since the remains where the consistency of wet blotter paper it may be unlikely.

With 98% human you still get a chimp.

With 99.5% you may get an Australopithicene.

With 99.9% you may get an archaic Homo Sapiens.

I think that in all likely hood you are either looking at an a link between early Homo types and Australopithicene

or a branch of Australopithecus or just pure  Australopithecus.

Of course Australopithecus types have had several  million years to evolve since they were found in the fossil record and may have evolved into the Hobbit or a large hairy Australopithicene that runs around making in line track-ways in the PNW.

If they had been crossing with Homo all along our hands and feet and head would look more like theirs,

and theirs like ours. But this hasn't changed in millions of years in harmony but in divergence.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Cryptic Megafauna