Has Bigfoot Science Stalled?

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

I think Bigfoot is controlling the interaction.

What that means philosophically is anyone's venture. 

[georgerm]

Georgerm:   "One test is when two different primates can interbreed, produce offspring, and the offspring can produce more offspring. This means the genes are close enough to allow this to happen. This seems to be the case with Zana. Are there any other reports?

 

 The two primates that look different are considered the same species. They still have genetical differences but not 35 million different genes but maybe 1 million genes."

 

Is that statement correct?    A Neanderthal is not the same species as homeosapiens.   It not only looks different but is considered a different species or at least a subspecies,  but still can reproduce with homeosapiens.    If Sykes is correct with his DNA analysis,  Zana was human and had less relationship to Neanderthal than I do (1.2%)   

 

The correctness of the statement is up for discussion since my studies of genetics is limited. Feel free to correct since we are after the truth.

 

Members of a species can have variations in physical and mental characteristics yet remain the same species.  The variants can reproduce with viable offspring. Bigfoot streaches this to the limits if it is a Homo sapien sasquatch. Neanderthals are assumed to have bred with Homo sapiens so are they a human if their offspring could reproduce?

 

Horses and donkeys produce mules that are sterile so does this apply to primate species too? Are some offspring sterile while others are fertile? Seems like nature pushes to keep the species pure and from mixing.

[Oonjerah]

If I have from 1 to 4% Neanderthal DNA ... does that not prove that the offspring did 

reproduce and continued to reproduce carrying the Neanderthal DNA to this generation?

 

They were (or are) Homo neanderthalensis. 

[Guest WesT]

^Which also means, that at one time, there was a 50/50 mix running around.

[georgerm]

If I have from 1 to 4% Neanderthal DNA ... does that not prove that the offspring did 

reproduce and continued to reproduce carrying the Neanderthal DNA to this generation?

 

They were (or are) Homo neanderthalensis. 

 

Maybe someone can explain this since there must be exceptions to the rule.  Two distinct species interbreed and the off spring is able to reproduce is an exception to the rule.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

Both Neanderthals, Sapiens, and any admixture could easily live in human society,

And would look very much like us, talk (likely though unproven with Neanderthal), use tools.

A Patty type entity has spent tens of thousands of years evolving to adapt to high altitude alpine forest and has ape like feet hands and a head that has many features of an Erectus, Hablis, or gracile Australopithicus all of which are hundreds of thousands, millions, and many millions of years further back in the known record.

 

Your logical barrier is that the hands, arm length, skull shape, lifestyle (little language, tools, fire) do not fit Sapiens or Neanderthal and would require too many special expectations defying all known evolutionary rules to explain logically. 

 

Other inference based on the Sierra audio is that the vocal cavity is consistent (in that instance) and having twice the auditory cavity of a six foot man and unable to bring the tongue forward to make the e vowel sounds as is the case with Apes due their neck being recessed into the chest. 

 

An archaic human is much more primitive than Sapiens but still does not have those types of features.

 

The divergence of a new animal that had an Australopithicene type but an unknown and new form of bipedalism would have happened over a very long time as well, and may have been present a million years ago (speculation) but would have needed a minimum of another million years to evolve. From what that animal evolved is the true question. It's obvious that Bigfoot is not a known species, but from what species did it evolve.

 

That some people may have produced offspring with a Sasquatch would mean millions of years of parallel development between 

undescribed (scientifically) branchiness of hominid species and hominin species. Many of these types did not survive and / or we have not found fossils yet (if ever) The genetic lines that did survive to the present (if any) are unknown species.

 

The truth is usually the simplest explanation. 

 

A productive line of inquiry aside from capturing an actual individual would be to find caves that survived the last ice age and were never glaciated somewhere in the inter mountain west or PNW.

 

This might be in a fossil bearing region where the remains of camelids, miniature horses, and ground sloths have been recovered. Then do a professional archaeological dig.

 

Of course they may have migrated more recently, if so you may be looking for something like this.

This is a hominin species that was present 11,000 to 14,500 years ago in China in the Red Deer cave.

Coincidentally the end of the last ice age where Sapiens farmers where moving into that region.

Could they have been displaced and migrated elsewhere?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Cryptic Megafauna

[southernyahoo]

 

If I have from 1 to 4% Neanderthal DNA ... does that not prove that the offspring did 

reproduce and continued to reproduce carrying the Neanderthal DNA to this generation?

 

They were (or are) Homo neanderthalensis. 

 

Maybe someone can explain this since there must be exceptions to the rule.  Two distinct species interbreed and the off spring is able to reproduce is an exception to the rule.

 

 

Well, two very closely related species have to have the same number of chromosomes to be able to reproduce. I agree with oonjerah that we would have no DNA contributed from Neanderthals if the offspring from a cross could not also reproduce with either species. The fact we have so little from them could be because the traits from Cro Magnon was still heavily favored and perhaps the female offspring from a cross were less fertile, because the Neanderthal maternal lineage didn't survive in us. If their contribution was primarily from the paternal side, it could gradually dilute in the nuclear DNA which is a remix every generation.

 

The fact that we might consider two species to be separate species, doesn't necessarily mean they can't interbreed if they haven't been isolated from each other long enough.

[norseman]

Todd Standing Finally Exposed?

http://bigfootforums.com/index.php/topic/52459-todd-standing-finally-exposed/?hl=standing

 

So this topic which ran to an 8th page ... Many of the posters are liable to be sued?

 

Act so outrageous, that others can't help making fun of you ... then Sue?

Perhaps one can make a living at that. Trouble is, the lawyers get the bulk of it.

Plussed.

Why should we treat Ketchum with any more respect than Standing or Biscardi??? She has way bigger problems than any of us nobodies on this forum.....like the Houston chronicle that published an independent study on her work. That she claimed was just propoganda to discredit her....

I have great disdain for the whole business of sueing people. And I would never consider sueing any of you for talking bad about me especially if my grandiose claims of proof never bore fruit. I view it as a citizens right to do so. Nobody should be able to gag you for speaking the truth.

Where is the proof Ketchum? Standing? Biscardi? No where.

[southernyahoo]

 

 

Other inference based on the Sierra audio is that the vocal cavity is consistent (in that instance) and having twice the auditory cavity of a six foot man and unable to bring the tongue forward to make the e vowel sounds as is the case with Apes due their neck being recessed into the chest. 

 

 

 

Are you referring to the Kirlin analysis CM? Could the e vowel be better represented as /I/.? I recall their analysis didn't discover one of the cardinal or quantal vowels, but I can here an /i/ in some of the phonemes. A shorter neck is speculated to have hindered Neanderthal speech as it might limit a descended larynx which enlarges the vocal cavity and allows a more posterior position of the tongue and aids quantal vowel production.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

 

 

 

Other inference based on the Sierra audio is that the vocal cavity is consistent (in that instance) and having twice the auditory cavity of a six foot man and unable to bring the tongue forward to make the e vowel sounds as is the case with Apes due their neck being recessed into the chest. 

 

 

 

Are you referring to the Kirlin analysis CM? Could the e vowel be better represented as /I/.? I recall their analysis didn't discover one of the cardinal or quantal vowels, but I can here an /i/ in some of the phonemes. A shorter neck is speculated to have hindered Neanderthal speech as it might limit a descended larynx which enlarges the vocal cavity and allows a more posterior position of the tongue and aids quantal vowel production.

 

Good point regarding the neck of the Neanderthal.

Neanderthals were not very primitive, though, contrary to popular fiction.

[SWWASAS]

 

 

If I have from 1 to 4% Neanderthal DNA ... does that not prove that the offspring did 

reproduce and continued to reproduce carrying the Neanderthal DNA to this generation?

 

They were (or are) Homo neanderthalensis. 

 

Maybe someone can explain this since there must be exceptions to the rule.  Two distinct species interbreed and the off spring is able to reproduce is an exception to the rule.

 

 

Well, two very closely related species have to have the same number of chromosomes to be able to reproduce. I agree with oonjerah that we would have no DNA contributed from Neanderthals if the offspring from a cross could not also reproduce with either species. The fact we have so little from them could be because the traits from Cro Magnon was still heavily favored and perhaps the female offspring from a cross were less fertile, because the Neanderthal maternal lineage didn't survive in us. If their contribution was primarily from the paternal side, it could gradually dilute in the nuclear DNA which is a remix every generation.

 

The fact that we might consider two species to be separate species, doesn't necessarily mean they can't interbreed if they haven't been isolated from each other long enough.

 

It is not like ancestral humans all lived at the same place at any given time unless you go really far back to human origins in Africa.    The fact that some humans have little or no Neanderthal DNA is that a large part what became modern humans migrated away from the area where Neanderthals were located in Europe.  You cannot interbreed if you are geographically separated.   I have no Neanderthal on my mothers side of my DNA, it is all on my paternal side.     The migration vectors out of Africa some human ancestors moved straight North then West.  Neanderthals developed in Europe.    Other early humans,   headed East into central and SE Asia  and would never have encountered a Neanderthal who were in Europe.     Some Asian humans were very nomadic and moved back and forth from East Asia to the Urals.      They know all of this stuff by presence of genetic markers typical of people who settled or had a presence in certain areas and studying ancient human DNA in different localities.   

[SWWASAS]

Just heard an interesting new theory as to why homeo sapiens suddently became dominant over Neanderthals in Europe.   About the same time the Neanderthals disappeared humans had domesticated and started using wolf dogs for hunting.     Some Mammoth killing fields where humans had corralled and slaughtered Mammoths there are remains of wolf dogs killed by the Mammoths.    By using the wolf dogs in packs,  humans suddenly began to be very successful hunting all prey including Mammoth and deer.   This success is thought by the theorist to have allowed humans to outcompete Neanderthal for game.   The packs of wolf dogs could run down and exhaust animals so the humans could move in for the kill.  New evidence suggest the demise of the Neanderthal happened in as little as a 2000 year period at exactly the same time as humans had starting using wolf dogs to hunt.    A successful and hardy species for over 200,000 years suddenly could not compete for available food resources with humans.          

[Yuchi1]

 

Todd Standing Finally Exposed?

http://bigfootforums.com/index.php/topic/52459-todd-standing-finally-exposed/?hl=standing

 

So this topic which ran to an 8th page ... Many of the posters are liable to be sued?

 

Act so outrageous, that others can't help making fun of you ... then Sue?

Perhaps one can make a living at that. Trouble is, the lawyers get the bulk of it.

Plussed.

Why should we treat Ketchum with any more respect than Standing or Biscardi??? She has way bigger problems than any of us nobodies on this forum.....like the Houston chronicle that published an independent study on her work. That she claimed was just propoganda to discredit her....

I have great disdain for the whole business of sueing people. And I would never consider sueing any of you for talking bad about me especially if my grandiose claims of proof never bore fruit. I view it as a citizens right to do so. Nobody should be able to gag you for speaking the truth.

Where is the proof Ketchum? Standing? Biscardi? No where.

 

 

It isn't about this ^^^ at all.

 

What is relevant is you declaring her to be in an impaired mental state (I believe the word used was "crazy") and calling her a fraud without including any proof to substantiate your publications.

 

Along those lines is where (IIRC) Mr. Coleman got crossways with Mr. Johnsen over similar comments and he (Coleman) placed himself in a bit of a sticky wicket.

 

So, speaking of "proof" and what you call truth" (regarding your allegations against Ketchum) IMO, you probably would be well served to get busy and find it.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

If Neanderthals developed as a separate group, and now we know they could interbreed: so not a different species; you may be able to infer the following, and this is a problem (my guess) with those that just go with DNA expression "proving" a certain % of DNA from a certain ancestral stock, i.e. the genetic scientists that only do math studies to investigate relationships through time.

 

An isolated group develops differently as it's DNA is separate from the main pool for transmission.

When the barrier that led to the isolation (Glaciers and ice age environments) is removed.

The divergent groups DNA is wholly absorbed by the dominant genome pool.

This would appear to some that a group went extinct when their genes just again became "our" genes.

So we may be 100 % Neanderthal and Sapiens Sapiens, it's just that the recessive genes may become less and less frequent.

 

It may even be possible that the entire genome of Neanderthal could re express itself in one individual (or small group) although so rare that the math on probability would never be done. This likelihood would increase if these small groups of peoples persisted in certain location for very long periods in semi isolation since the last ice age. The Iberian peninsula, parts of France, the Americas, and the Tibetan plateau and Siberia might be likely locations to look. 

 

Or just up the road from me. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Cryptic Megafauna

[norseman]

Todd Standing Finally Exposed?http://bigfootforums.com/index.php/topic/52459-todd-standing-finally-exposed/?hl=standing

 

So this topic which ran to an 8th page ... Many of the posters are liable to be sued?

 

Act so outrageous, that others can't help making fun of you ... then Sue?

Perhaps one can make a living at that. Trouble is, the lawyers get the bulk of it.

Plussed.

Why should we treat Ketchum with any more respect than Standing or Biscardi??? She has way bigger problems than any of us nobodies on this forum.....like the Houston chronicle that published an independent study on her work. That she claimed was just propoganda to discredit her....

I have great disdain for the whole business of sueing people. And I would never consider sueing any of you for talking bad about me especially if my grandiose claims of proof never bore fruit. I view it as a citizens right to do so. Nobody should be able to gag you for speaking the truth.

Where is the proof Ketchum? Standing? Biscardi? No where.

 

It isn't about this ^^^ at all.

 

What is relevant is you declaring her to be in an impaired mental state (I believe the word used was "crazy") and calling her a fraud without including any proof to substantiate your publications.

 

Along those lines is where (IIRC) Mr. Coleman got crossways with Mr. Johnsen over similar comments and he (Coleman) placed himself in a bit of a sticky wicket.

 

So, speaking of "proof" and what you call truth" (regarding your allegations against Ketchum) IMO, you probably would be well served to get busy and find it.

Pretty easy really....until her "study" is accepted by a real peer reviewed scientific journal instead of her own journal she set up for the sole purpose of publishing her paper?

She doesnt have a leg to stand on.

You would think that she would work really hard to salvage her study and get an incredible new species like Sasquatch excepted by science right? But no.......she instead turns her attention to DNA tests of reported Alien hybrid skulls from south America. And writes an article and gives interviews about Dog men.

i would define someone who believes in werewolves pretty crazy, yes.