Hybrid Hypothesis Dead, Done, Stick A Fork In It....

[Guest DWA]

What I read gives me no reason to believe that those DNA tests should be a major part of my calculus as to what this is.  Not saying my mind isn't open to all possibilities; just saying that I would rather not deal with that when we can't even agree on whether it's real or not, and what I've read tells me that we should be finding out but certain things are keeping us from coming together on this and what certain people perceive as woo-woo is one of those things.

[southernyahoo]

Dna is simply not woo. Any taxonomy being done on a BF specimen would be consistent with what the Dna says it is. The two have to match and align with evolutionary theory or it will not publish, Or become any kind of fact. This is what makes Dna alone as good as a specimen, so long as it's not human which is the only primate Dna we get or have ever had from a sample.

Anything ape other than human would be far easier to publish, no cover ups, or hiding the truth required.science would have no reason to look the other way. That's why they show no interest in BF. They know the craziness would get swept away with something they could prove was not human.

[FarArcher]

They can afford to disregard you, they are not even aware of you.

 

It works out.  I disregard them as they have zero impact on me, and other than the name Meldrum, I am unaware of them too.

 

Do any of you actually give a flying flop what they think?

 

 

Incorrigible, you seem to place a lot of faith in academia.  The "entire scientific community, movers, shakers, Ph.D's, and professors emeritus."  I hope you don't vapor-lock at the fact that most of these "experts" learn by rote, and in turn, teach by rote.  They don't make the discoveries - non-academia make most of the ground-shaking discoveries.

 

Both highly trained scientists and laymen use one of two approaches to discovery.  Hypothesis generation and hypothesis evaluation.

 

Your "scientists" are often tainted by what they consider as facts - and it frequently turns them away from discovery as they've already concluded, as has their particular discipline within their sliver of science - that to even take a look at this is a waste of time.

 

Fortunately, the lay person has no such restrictions, and can look at a problem/data pile from a fresh perspective - and is often more faithful to the scientific process than the scientists themselves.

 

Our very presence on computers here at this site at this time, is not due to "the entire scientific community, movers, shakers, Ph.D's and professors emeritus."  We're here today because of college drop-outs, many self-taught technicians, and just clever every day folks.

 

If you want to be a physicist, an endeavor that demands lots of math and precision, you'll be taught (James Clerk) Maxwell's Equations.  Problem is, those are not Maxwell's Equations - they've been dummied down and altered to only address transverse electromagnetic understandings.  They're getting HALF of what's possible.  But that's what the professors learned, and that's what they teach, so we ignore fully half of the electromagnetic world - as students are completely unaware of the other half.  That's your professors emeritus.

 

 

And one other thing.  

 

I don't know why you have a weed up your crease, and resort to pitiful little snipes at me, suggesting I'm a self-proclaimed warrior, and then throwing in the extra bit about tilting windmills.

 

I get it.  You didn't serve in the military - maybe you did, but were a supply clerk or nurses aide.  That's not my fault.  You chose your path, and I chose mine.  You enjoy your popcorn, as that's probably what you were busy doing while some of us were doing some hard things - things you have no idea of.  That too, is not my fault.

 

You don't like the military - I get it.  You especially don't like those who served in combat - because clearly you didn't.  I get it.  You don't like references made from experience in the field - which you can't comment on because you have none.  I get it.

 

Just a friendly suggestion.  Grow up.

[Guest DWA]

Dna is simply not woo. Any taxonomy being done on a BF specimen would be consistent with what the Dna says it is. The two have to match and align with evolutionary theory or it will not publish, Or become any kind of fact. This is what makes Dna alone as good as a specimen, so long as it's not human which is the only primate Dna we get or have ever had from a sample.

 

Again, we have the issue that DNA results will not be taken seriously as long as no one can point to the Big Guy it came from.  Human in the sample can be brushed away with the one-two punch:  where's the Big Guy?  Oh, and contaminated sample.  I mean look!  We're watching it happen.

 

DNA alone will not be as good as a specimen, period.  We have all the proof we will ever need:  where we are with DNA samples...and no body.  

 

What's woo is shapeshifter/orber/fifth-dimensionalist...and...um....human or human hybrid.  It is plain the mainstream isn't biting.  When one does, and breaks this to the world...*then* and only then do I stand corrected.

 

 

[Incorrigible1]

I prefer my warriors far more humble. And this silly campaign against science, how else to compare it but to Don Quixote?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Incorrigible1

[norseman]

Ok, enough with the broad sweeping generalizations and science bashing.

Is the article in the original post, right or wrong. If its hypothesis is wrong? Why is it wrong?

SY, thanks for trying to keep us on topic.

I read an article a year ago or so that claimed Neanderthals and Sapiens were at the cusp of reproductive compatibility. Ill try to find it.

Here it is.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/01/28/267923336/neanderthal-genes-live-on-in-our-hair-and-skin

Edited April 22, 2016 by norseman

[SWWASAS]

The claim that Neanderthals originated in Europe is troubling or misleading to me.    Perhaps the species developed there but must have come from a common ancestor with origins elsewhere like Africa.   It seems that modern humans bumped into them when we moved into Western Europe.  

Edited April 22, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[FarArcher]

I prefer my warriors far more humble. And this silly campaign against science, how else to compare it but to Don Quixote?

 

You like your warriors far more humble?  More bad news.  Being humble is NOT a characteristic of those who just happen to be the 1% of the 1%.  That's so far removed from the brutal reality, it's comical to even consider.  In this day, many folks feel entitled to project their own feelings of entitlement, but that's la-la land. Some things are just what they are.

 

As to the "silly campaign against science." 

 

I stated "Ape" wasn't a scientific toxonomy term.  Some took exception. 

 

Norse was kind enough to give the proper taxonomy list for humans. Proper scientific terminology.

 

Sure enough, the English word "ape" was not part of the proper scientific toxonomy.  Which was precisely my point.  So somehow in your world, this constitutes a campaign against science?  Whatever, dude.

 

 

All this Neanderthal DNA work assumes that BF is Neanderthal - otherwise, the entire argument is moot.

 

 

Science is at war with itself - they certainly don't need my help.

[Yuchi1]

"Junk Science" is far more prevalent than many would imagine.

 

IMO, those practicing a pure strain of science are in the minority.

 

It's somewhat akin to recorded history as there's what is written in textbooks...and then there's what actually happened and while often ignored, never refuted.

 

Fifty years ago many things thought absolute are now moot, so what do you think 2066 will look like regarding current "facts"?

[Guest DWA]

I prefer my warriors far more humble. And this silly campaign against science, how else to compare it but to Don Quixote?

[buys more popcorn and waits for explanation of nonexistent 'silly campaign against science']

 

It's a campaign *for* science, silly.

 

There, fixed.

[Yuchi1]

Ok, enough with the broad sweeping generalizations and science bashing.

Is the article in the original post, right or wrong. If its hypothesis is wrong? Why is it wrong?

SY, thanks for trying to keep us on topic.

I read an article a year ago or so that claimed Neanderthals and Sapiens were at the cusp of reproductive compatibility. Ill try to find it.

Here it is.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/01/28/267923336/neanderthal-genes-live-on-in-our-hair-and-skin

 

In one of the sub-articles attached to Norseman's link is mention of Neanderthal DNA have a "mystery component" indicating they interbred with a yet unknown other species of homo____.

 

Toga parties have apparently been ongoing for quite some time.

[ShadowBorn]

Shadowborn, I'm stating we lost the Neanderthal maternal lineage that should still be with us from an ancient hybridization between us and Neanderthals. If the OP Hypothesis is correct that the female hybrids were the ones that were born in the first place and rebred back to Cro Magnons, then it should have been more persistent than the Y chromosome, but it vanished also. We still have our maternal lineages from 20 to 40k years ago, and they don't match Neanderthal.

Hybridizations could have occurred during a bottleneck in our population numbers, but with a following boom in population, perhaps the direct lines to Neanderthals simply washed out of the mix. Sterility and spontaneous abortion is not a certainty among the proposed hybrid males, this is why it's an hypothesis and not a fact.

If we lost the maternal linage of Neanderthal then why is found in some Humans DNA ? This only means that it has never been lost at all. So let's say that a female which is XX has mated with a Neanderthal male which is XY gives birth and the out come is a Male half breed that is XY. Now this is speculating on my part since I am no scientist, But what if this same Neanderthal mated with the same female  of a different species  and kept having children . Sooner or later another female is going to be produce carrying the maternal linage with it. If this is true then the Y chromosome has never been dropped and Neanderthal DNA should be with in human men as well men as females. If this is false then there should be no Neanderthal DNA in none of us Human, causing the Y chromosome to drop. Now I not sure if this makes sense but in my head it does and it sounds right.

 

I keep hearing about Bottle neck in our population and I do not understand this. If you are talking about a central place where all creatures were all at in one place as they traveled to a another area.  That this is where it all occurred that started the population of all creatures on earth, then we are now talking about how maybe these creatures got there start along side ours. From what I can tell is that some thing spectacular took place that created us and it is beyond our own understanding, but what created them.  What or who ever created them or how ever they were created is with in our understanding and this is where we should be searching... What created them?

[norseman]

I prefer my warriors far more humble. And this silly campaign against science, how else to compare it but to Don Quixote?

You like your warriors far more humble? More bad news. Being humble is NOT a characteristic of those who just happen to be the 1% of the 1%. That's so far removed from the brutal reality, it's comical to even consider. In this day, many folks feel entitled to project their own feelings of entitlement, but that's la-la land. Some things are just what they are.

As to the "silly campaign against science."

I stated "Ape" wasn't a scientific toxonomy term. Some took exception.

Norse was kind enough to give the proper taxonomy list for humans. Proper scientific terminology.

Sure enough, the English word "ape" was not part of the proper scientific toxonomy. Which was precisely my point. So somehow in your world, this constitutes a campaign against science? Whatever, dude.

All this Neanderthal DNA work assumes that BF is Neanderthal - otherwise, the entire argument is moot.

Science is at war with itself - they certainly don't need my help.

This is just a dishonest play on words.......Just because the word "Ape" is not used? Whatever is right.

And evidently your not picking up the jest of what is being said here. I being the original poster? Never stated that Bigfoot is Neanderthal. The article has nothing to do with Bigfoot.

What is being said here is that Bigfoot being proposed as a hybrid between an unknown archaic hominid and a human woman 12000 years ago is impossible....per the study of Neanderthal DNA. Homo Neanderthal and Homo Sapien as close as we are had difficulties reproducing together. So that does not bode well with Sasquatch being a Human hybrid in and of itself.....nothing to do with Neanderthal.

Its a comparison....of what we KNOW scientifically with human hybrids and what is being proposed with a cryptid Ape man.

Again, we dont know what it is and never will until either a body is produced or indisputable DNA.

Edited April 22, 2016 by norseman

[FarArcher]

Now Norse, using the specific, scientific taxonomy terminology is not a play on words.

 

Hey, I didn't even post them - you did.

 

I simply don't agree with the postulation that what happened between humans and Neanderthal has anything to do with the possibility that another undiscovered entity may exist - that is a hybrid - from another species so far unknown.  Keyword: unknown.

 

I further don't think that the current fossil record is complete.  I don't think that there are no other discoveries to be made.

 

And we can go in circles on this, but what we KNOW scientifically is likely incomplete.

 

You and I agree a body is the only thing that will settle the matter.  Anything else is speculation, fun to think about, but there is insufficient hard data to be indicative of anything.

 

You can believe it's an Gigantopithecus based critter - and I can believe it has too many human characteristics and is some sort of hybrid - and one idea is just as good as another.

[hiflier]

In ALL of Eastern and Western Europe it is thought that there were only 70, 000 Neanderthal individuals. And as an ancient a species they were they are thought to be hybrids themselves having their roots in two even more ancient branches- one in Northern Europe and one in Central Asia- each well over a million years old.

The idea of ONE male with 46 chromosomes finding ONE femane with the same 46 pairings is just not making sense to me. There had to be a source outside the circle. Somewhere sometime there had to be some kind of general cause for the mutation resulting in the fusing of a pair of the original 48 pairs of chromosomes.

The side of Earth where these individuals were residing had to have received a mega-blast of space radiation hitting that corner of the globe which was absorbed by everything in a limited area making the residual of what was left of the initial bombardment much less as the Earth spun on it's axis. So everything else was radiated in a relatively much lover dose. Gamma rays get absorbed by the atmosphere rather quickly and therefore don't last long but a sever blast could make it to the ground before the intensity was lessened.

Astrophysicists have showed us many supernovae, some close by, that could have been the culprit. Our own Galaxy has enormous gamma ray bubbles blasting out of the core that have been estimated to have been initiated 3-10 million years ago and and one PhD has shown that a superwave hit here approximately 40,000 years ago. Since none of this, or very little of it. has been discussed in context as a possible chromosomal mutation scenario then perhaps a larger picture of our past might need to be incorporated.

Edited April 23, 2016 by hiflier