Hybrid Hypothesis Dead, Done, Stick A Fork In It....

[norseman]

If individual female hybrids are living with bands of homo sapiens? What are the chances they are mating with neanderthals?

How often is this happening, while of course while Neanderthals are being displaced?

[southernyahoo]

You wouldn't know if all of the hybrid females lived with homo sapiens, some could have been abducted and displacement wouldn't be over night. We think we absorbed them, but that could have been a two way street for a while. Or if Sasquatch is a hybrid from us, it could still be going at least one direction.

 

 

You resort to rhetoric when you are confronted with these possibilities. It shows insincerity.

[norseman]

No. I'm simply trying to work out in my own mind how it played out.

The logic remains that any hybrids that left their mother and went and lived with Neanderthals? Their genes died with the rest of The Neanderthals. So they are moot.

Any female hybrids that stayed with Homo Sapiens must of been few enough that no direct mitochrondrial DNA lineage is left to them. Humans in Europe and Asia who have 2-4% Neanderthal DNA left in their genetic codes are 96%~98% modern Human. Neanderthals hardly put a dent in us, and the pairing absolutely did not spawn a third 50/50 hybrid species as has been proposed with Sasquatch.

I am being sincere with you SY, I'm sorry if you dont think so.

[southernyahoo]

None of the offspring would be 50/ 50 after the second generation. If neanderthal had persisted, which is something Sykes was willing to test for, what effects do think we would have made on their make up? Perhaps they would return to what they were also, but with human mitochondria in the mix. If the population dynamics were the same for them then we might expect the human mitochondria to be absent, but if they were in a bottleneck, then the opposite could have happened.

[ShadowBorn]

Ok, I think I am getting this some what. I just did not understand what you all meant by bottleneck, which means some event that took place that reduced the population. Which means this event could have been "due to environmental events (such as earthquakes, floods, fires, disease, or droughts) or human activities (such as genocide)." Last part of sentence is a copy and paste off google definition for ( definition of evolutionary bottleneck ). So now that I understand that part, the next part is different but follows Haldane’s rule. Which states

 

when in the [first generation] offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the [heterogametic] sex

 

So the way I understand this is that in the first generation, according to this rule if followed in nature. The first offspring is the one that is the male or XY chromosome, since two matching chromosomes which is a female XX cannot happen according to this rule. This male is then unable to produce and this goes on with all hybrids. Question is what happens with hybrids and hybrids? What takes place when they mate? does the species die off or does it go on? and could these creatures be a hybrid of a hybrid of hybrid?

 

But according to this rule every second or third generation is ok, the way I understand it. But does the math hold up on this theory to how maybe Neanderthal faded out, but still remained with in our DNA in some. 

[southernyahoo]

Females are XX and they get one copy of X from each parent. Males with XY get their X from their mother but not from their father where they get the Y only.

 

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/typesx/

 

 

It's probably still a flip of the coin, with hybrids, which gender a fetus is supposed to be at conception, but like the OP article suggests, both genders may not reach full term in the womb with equal success. It's speculative on my part to present hypothetical scenarios that Neanderthals could have persisted longer than the fossil record supports, but there was at least some success or we wouldn't have Neanderthal DNA in us.

 

So what success did Neanderthals experience post hybridization is the open question. The possibility that they carried our DNA in them still remains. 

 

That's my primary point to make where Sasquatch as a hybrid is concerned.

[Guest Cryptic Megafauna]

I don't see any problem with Sapiens and Neanderthal Breeding. An isolated outlier population separated from the main gene flows by ice age environments that is absorbed leaving little DNA evidence of having ever existed. End result being just a few non matching gene sequences. Probably could be lumped in with Sapiens Sapiens. Perhaps being genetically recessive made them somewhat unattractive as breeding partners, (but when did that ever stop your average human male?). They would simply have more recessive characteristics that would not survive the transition of reabsorbtion.

[norseman]

Females are XX and they get one copy of X from each parent. Males with XY get their X from their mother but not from their father where they get the Y only.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/typesx/

It's probably still a flip of the coin, with hybrids, which gender a fetus is supposed to be at conception, but like the OP article suggests, both genders may not reach full term in the womb with equal success. It's speculative on my part to present hypothetical scenarios that Neanderthals could have persisted longer than the fossil record supports, but there was at least some success or we wouldn't have Neanderthal DNA in us.

So what success did Neanderthals experience post hybridization is the open question. The possibility that they carried our DNA in them still remains.

That's my primary point to make where Sasquatch as a hybrid is concerned.

I will accept that. If mating was occuring with Neanderthal men and Homo Sapien women? Vice Versa surely happened. But as of yet because Neanderthals are extinct and only a few genomes of their species have been cracked. This is of yet unproven.

But what didnt happen is what Ketchum is proposing. A human woman mated with a unknown hominid 12000 years ago and spawned an independent race called Sasquatch.

The surviving Neanderthal/Human hybrids were instead reabsorbed into the gene pool, contributing very little to it. Likely causes are because these matings are a fluke and do not happen often enough to put a dent it the paternal or maternal species, which ever way the mating occured. And of course Neanderthals went extinct.

But I do not believe morphologically speaking that Patty is half human. Or that a very archaic unknown hominid would be capable of breeding to a human woman and produce a race of Patty like hominids.

Ketchum named Sasquatch "Homo Sapien Cognatus". Which sounds like something very very closely related to humans. Except it walks through snow drifts barefoot, leaves 18" tracks, weighs 800lbs, wears no clothes, starts no fires, manufactures no stone tools, etc....

So I see Ketchums hypothesis unworkable, ignoring of course the criticism of her data.

Edited May 1, 2016 by norseman

[MIB]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  *Ketchum* is a crackpot and her "science" was garbage.    Her being wrong, however, does not disprove the hybrid notion.  That's the same logic as lack of evidence being evidence of lack and is not valid in either case.  

 

The debate itself has no merit.   It does not matter who wins or loses. 

 

MIB

Edited May 1, 2016 by MIB

[ShadowBorn]

 

The surviving Neanderthal/Human hybrids were instead reabsorbed into the gene pool, contributing very little to it. Likely causes are because these matings are a fluke and do not happen often enough to put a dent it the paternal or maternal species, which ever way the mating occured. And of course Neanderthals went extinct.

The population of Neanderthals was not great enough for it to survive or inter breed. So what ever was left was already with in the populated. This is why the % in the DNA is so low of the populated. It is like the deeper you get into this stuff the more complicated it gets in a way, it gets kinda creepy and very spooky. Mixing and Mutations who knows what could of been created, I am not talking about just Mamals but every living thing.  Whole illnesses could have wiped out a whole species due to these mutations. Bad Voodoo Halsdale's rule this is throwing me through a loop,XX this Xy that XXX here then Xo what the heck is Xo doing here, then all of a sudden it is xxy. yea Halsdale rule!

 

About Dr.Ketchum no one is going to know until a body is in proper hands, and being studied. So until this happens it is all speculation, cause no one is going to except what comes out now.

[southernyahoo]

I will accept that. If mating was occuring with Neanderthal men and Homo Sapien women? Vice Versa surely happened.

 

 

I've been trying to explain that vice versa didn't have to happen in order for Neanderthal to have human DNA. They "Neanderthal" would only need a female hybrid from a human mother to breed with. Of coarse they would need numerous such females to be taken over with human mitochondrial DNA.

[hiflier]

 

....So was there an ice age that transformed this world which made Humans to travel to warmer climates? Then was there a melting of this ice which cause flooding, which also cause rain do to the heat from some celestial event that Hiflier has been hinting too?....

Just a bit of clarification if I may. The cosmic bombardment event I was describing was proposed as a result of finding elevated levels of a signature isotope called Beryllium 10 in ice corings. These events are not heat generating events where ice caps would melt. It would be primarily an atmospheric event where large scale ozone depletion would allow a greater influx of ultraviolet radiation.

That higher, long duration of UV radiation would alter the DNA of plants and animals at molecular/cellular lever creating mutations. Whether or not such an event over time would do things like fuse chromosome 2 in Humans to create 23 pairs instead of 24 is unknown to me. But at least you know how I think when I read such things. I always go back and apply the new info to the whole of what I already know and have learned.

For instance, I've known about the cosmic ray bombardments for several years now. I've only learned about the 23 vs. 24 chromosomes recently in Norseman's thread. I was suggesting putting the possibility of mutation as being a result of the long-term bombardment issue. The radiation from Chernobyl and Fukushima for example were not heat events outside the reactors but the non-heat radiation exposure was.

 

 

Just in case anyone thinks I haven't done my homework over the years on this stuff:

 

http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/2012/10/19/earths-geomagnetic-reversal-happened-41000-years-ago-new-study-claims/

 

There was no less than four major upheavals around 40,000 years ago. The one in the link is what I was getting at WRT DNA changing scenarios. Neanderthal may have been more susceptible to such changes and within a few thousand years after these events they were gone. Cro-Magnon lived on but studying the approximately 10,000 year overlap of the two- Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal is very interesting. More and more scientists are moving toward climate change being closely linked to the magnetic pole wandering and magnetic pole reversals as a factor in not only climate change but other geophysical processes as well- earthquake/volcanic activity for instance.

Edited May 10, 2016 by hiflier

[Yuchi1]

^^^ Basically, what you're implying is there may have been a host of other factors besides mere interbreeding?

[hiflier]

^^^ Basically, what you're implying is there may have been a host of other factors besides mere interbreeding?

 

Not so much a host of other factors unless one is talking about a domino effect. To have a magnetosphere that is only 5% as effective at shutting out the harmful and strong mutational impacts of cosmic and ultraviolet radiation is to meet death and potential molecular alterations on scales that today would be devastating to us. Mental deficiencies on a large scale and genetic imbalances disrupting immune systems, food sources, and reproductive robustness would be curtailed. But for the last wave of Humans out of Africa many would have had a better chance at survival simply by the fish and shellfish diets incorporated into their lives.

 

It would be not only the brain enriching properties of the extra fatty omega 3's from fish but also the iodine that would be absorbed so that the radiated iodine in bones doesn't get absorbed into a thyroid and cause radiation sickness and cancers. The importance of what is called "space weather" cannot be overlooked when our shields go down.     

[hiflier]

 

^^^ Basically, what you're implying is there may have been a host of other factors besides mere interbreeding?

 

Not so much a host of other factors unless one is talking about a domino effect. To have a magnetosphere that is only 5% as effective at shutting out the harmful and strong mutational impacts of cosmic and ultraviolet radiation is to meet death and potential molecular alterations on scales that today would be devastating to us. Mental deficiencies on a large scale and genetic imbalances disrupting immune systems, food sources, and reproductive robustness would be curtailed. But for the last wave of Humans out of Africa many would have had a better chance at survival simply by the fish and shellfish diets incorporated into their lives.

 

It would be not only the brain enriching properties of the extra fatty omega 3's from fish but also the iodine that would be absorbed so that the radiated iodine in bones doesn't get absorbed into a thyroid and cause radiation sickness and cancers. The importance of what is called "space weather" cannot be overlooked when our shields go down.     

 

 

I meant to say AFFECTED, not CURTAILED.