hiflier Posted May 28, 2016 Author Posted May 28, 2016 Agreed Crow. I have no problems with what you are saying. But there a real difference here. There is an account of what happened October 20th, 1967. I think there are holes in a hoax scenario and that's what I'm keying in on. It won't prove Patty and I'm not out to do that. If that happens it will do it on it's own. Without speculating on whether or not P&G hoaxed the film I simply going after the hoax mentality and trying to understand why the filming of the guy in the suit was so minimal. Why they didn't have the plaster with them, and why they shot a trackway and cast footprints (real or faked) when in my mind the film would have been better utilized shooting more guy in suit either to develop with the rest of the film for immediate viewing of to keep for later to make them and Patty appear more real and even use the extra footage for a faked expedition elsewhere. This thread is for looking deeper into that and discussing the mind of a the would-be hoaxer at Bluff creek and why none of that was done. Instead they ran with 59 seconds to hustle the footage onto a plane to the developer. Rather short-sighted hoaxing IFYAM.
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Not a problem Norse. The film was shot no doubt and a track line was made to match the film subject. Mime tracks in the soil would have been still present enough for Roge to make his "official" track line. There is nothing wrong with the layout of the PGF and it's tracks with the exception that Roge didn't shoot the entire line and neither did anybody else. But there could be a half dozen more takes in different areas we don't know about because they weren't worth using.
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) This thread is for looking deeper into that and discussing the mind of a the would-be hoaxer at Bluff creek and why none of that was done. Instead they ran with 59 seconds to hustle the footage onto a plane to the developer. Rather short-sighted hoaxing IFYAM. They ran with the best 59 seconds of film they had. Did you know that guitar I posted I stripped down twice because I screwed up the finish? Did you know I made no fewer than 9 color blend samples before settling on the one I went with for real. No you just see the final product you don't know the outtakes and slip ups. Edited May 28, 2016 by Crowlogic
norseman Posted May 28, 2016 Admin Posted May 28, 2016 Oh its a problem. And one that is unique to this film only. They shot the trackway yes? Where are these "mime" bigfoot tracks you talk about? Why does Jim McClarin look like a midget next to the film subject? How would Bob H walk naturally in a suit that big? Would he not walk like the bundled little brother in the "Christmas Story"? You talk about the burden of physical proof laying with proponents, which is true. But in this case? The burden of proof that the PGF is a hoax? Lies with you......and all I keep hearing is your opinion on the matter. Where is your proof that the PGF is a hoax? 2
hiflier Posted May 28, 2016 Author Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) OK. I'll play your game Crow; but only this one time. There were "probably" no out takes and so they "probably" ran with the ONLY 59 seconds that they had. Is that better now that I'm stooping to speculation? No it isn't and it isn't for you either. You can speculate until the cows come home but at the end of the day you only have the film as we know it. Watering down this thread by dumping what-if's all over it is an old game and you do it somewhat well considering all the practice you've had. The bottom line is though the boys at Bluff Creek blew the chance to create and SHOW more footage of what people call Patty. Either because they only had the one chance or because they simply weren't that smart. They forgot the plaster after all so maybe between the two of them and during all the planning of making the suit, getting to Bluff Creek saddling the horses, and all the other stuff neither of them thought, "Hey, lets shoot some more footage for later". You see, you redid work, color and finishes on your guitar why? BECAUSE YOU COULD ACTUALLY SEE THE FAILURES THAT NEEDED CORRECTING. P&G didn't have that luxury. They wouldn't have KNOWN they needed out takes and even if they did have out takes they wouldn't have known which were any good so why waste film on a trackway and filming Gimlin running around on horseback leading another horse? After all they only had a little over eight minutes of total film capability. In all honesty Crowlogic haven't you ever asked yourself these questions? Edited May 28, 2016 by hiflier 1
guyzonthropus Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Crow-who really cares, after all its just a guitar (btw, I'm a bassist of 39yrs, no guitarist issues, I swear!) lol I gotta say, I'm with hiflier on this one on a number of aspects. You'd think someone devious enough to plot out and perpetrate such a hoax would not have left the plaster "at home", they'd have a list, check it twice, and take what was needed. They would know "the creature" would be there that afternoon (unless it was like"heres the suit, sneak up on us, while we're armed, sometime over the next couple days, just to get a real 'surprised response' on our part, I 'll shake the camera a bunch too"..i doubt it was though..) all planned out. The last thing you'd want when making a hoax is to get caught because you weren't prepared. But another thing that lessens the likelihood of it being hoaxes is the detail of the suit in a pre-PGF time, when state of the art costuming/make up technique couldn't match it, and there was no actual footage to compare it to, as there was after this film. I guess I'm trying to say that when this was filmed, the standard (ie pre-PGF) was pretty low for hairy apeman apparel, and to go through the effort to make a costume of such detail would've quite been unnecessary and way over top, and much more effort for a hoaxer"going back for the plaster" Maybe I just too young(ha!)to remember, but"serious" bigfoot hoaxes weren't much of a thing back then, were they? Maybe between friends, but it's hard to upload when all you got is three network channels in black and white....So I don't see folks, even folks from Yakima, going to that much effort. If hoaxes are the rule, then PGF is the exception that proves it, but that, in itself, also proves they are real.
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Oh its a problem. And one that is unique to this film only. They shot the trackway yes? Where are these "mime" bigfoot tracks you talk about? Why does Jim McClarin look like a midget next to the film subject? How would Bob H walk naturally in a suit that big? Would he not walk like the bundled little brother in the "Christmas Story"? You talk about the burden of physical proof laying with proponents, which is true. But in this case? The burden of proof that the PGF is a hoax? Lies with you......and all I keep hearing is your opinion on the matter. Where is your proof that the PGF is a hoax? They didn't shoot the entire trackway. Roge only shot that short segment on reel #2. The bigfoot tracks were largely cast by Titmus since Roge cast only two. We have nothing of the tracks where it went out of camera range. McClarin mimed the remnants of the trackway which was said to still be somewhat visible. How did the mime walk so well? Actually did the mime walk all than well? During the turn sequence the mime slams leg down rather ungracefully. But I think the answer of how the thing walked as well as it did goes along with young fit strong fella in it. How did the Wallace crew strap on stompers and get towed behind a pickup truck down Blue Creek Mt Rd? it happened. The same guy a few decades later couldn't do it again almost injured himself. But then Bob H got into a Morris suit which was not exactly featherweight and walked pretty well at Cow Camp. Well as for the hoax nature of the film there are still a number of fatal details and I don't think they are things Bill Munns dealt with. Now they are readily observable yet the chorus of artifact and not reliable imaging will scream loud and clear because bigfooters move and swap the goalposts at will. But I'll get up a rather recent detail that when I saw it looked worse than ever. But when it's posted I'll dare any footer to show a real live animal exhibiting the same thing. It won't happen. Stay tuned.
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) Crow-who really cares, after all its just a guitar (btw, I'm a bassist of 39yrs, no guitarist issues, I swear!) lol I gotta say, I'm with hiflier on this one on a number of aspects. You'd think someone devious enough to plot out and perpetrate such a hoax would not have left the plaster "at home", they'd have a list, check it twice, and take what was needed. They would know "the creature" would be there that afternoon (unless it was like"heres the suit, sneak up on us, while we're armed, sometime over the next couple days, just to get a real 'surprised response' on our part, I 'll shake the camera a bunch too"..i doubt it was though..) all planned out. The last thing you'd want when making a hoax is to get caught because you weren't prepared. But another thing that lessens the likelihood of it being hoaxes is the detail of the suit in a pre-PGF time, when state of the art costuming/make up technique couldn't match it, and there was no actual footage to compare it to, as there was after this film. I guess I'm trying to say that when this was filmed, the standard (ie pre-PGF) was pretty low for hairy apeman apparel, and to go through the effort to make a costume of such detail would've quite been unnecessary and way over top, and much more effort for a hoaxer"going back for the plaster" Maybe I just too young(ha!)to remember, but"serious" bigfoot hoaxes weren't much of a thing back then, were they? Maybe between friends, but it's hard to upload when all you got is three network channels in black and white....So I don't see folks, even folks from Yakima, going to that much effort. If hoaxes are the rule, then PGF is the exception that proves it, but that, in itself, also proves they are real. You likely are too young. It was all hoaxes Blue Creek Mountian Rd shortly before the PGF, Ivan Marx and his films, The Minnesota Iceman. And there you have it the golden age of bigfoot and it's all been proven hoax. Edited May 28, 2016 by Crowlogic
guyzonthropus Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Unless the suit is in the vault up at the old Wilkenson place, with anyone who knew it's location long since dead, (dang meddling kids!)it would have been brought forth by now, as surely any number of publications, costumers, tabloids, networks, or whatever would pay a huge sum o'cash for the suit that can match the footage, unless there's a conspiracy to keep the disproving from being proven, but that's a whole different thread..
guyzonthropus Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Well...about that...uhh..."too young" part, I'm in my late upper forties (read: 53) The Minnesota iceman was switched out, replaced by a non-actual-life-form style iceman, but not before being examined(there's a list of disparities between "early days" iceman and "end of the tour" Vienna) And neither, nor any other, footage or hoax even approach PGF, filmed in what I would term the honeymoon stage of BF/humans, as the golden age has yet to come! (Clouds part to a ray of light, a choir of angels sing out in blissful harmony) PGF introduced us! We met in a dark theater when I was but a boy....
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) Who made the costume? By the look of that upper thigh I'd say Monroe Shocks Edited May 28, 2016 by Crowlogic
Guest Crowlogic Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 Well...about that...uhh..."too young" part, I'm in my late upper forties (read: 53) The Minnesota iceman was switched out, replaced by a non-actual-life-form style iceman, but not before being examined(there's a list of disparities between "early days" iceman and "end of the tour" Vienna) And neither, nor any other, footage or hoax even approach PGF, filmed in what I would term the honeymoon stage of BF/humans, as the golden age has yet to come! (Clouds part to a ray of light, a choir of angels sing out in blissful harmony) PGF introduced us! We met in a dark theater when I was but a boy.... I saw the iceman every day for a week when I was a college student. I know what it was. Just because one film seems better than the rest doesn't make it real. There is not a shred of evidence of any substance to confirm the existence of bigfoot.
hiflier Posted May 28, 2016 Author Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) Who made the costume? By the look of that upper thigh I'd say Monroe Shocks Not here please Crowlogic. Take it to the Patterson Gimlin Film Forum for debate. It's outside the scope of this thread which needs to stay focused on the topic it has been set up for. Where is the second reel? And try to resist turning your back on my post #110 please. Sometimes you dance around worse than DWA! Edited May 29, 2016 by hiflier
indiefoot Posted May 29, 2016 Posted May 29, 2016 Crowlogic, I'm surprised your so quick to point out the possibility of outtakes, I thought Bob H. was someone who's word you trusted and he say's just one take.
norseman Posted May 29, 2016 Admin Posted May 29, 2016 Oh its a problem. And one that is unique to this film only. They shot the trackway yes? Where are these "mime" bigfoot tracks you talk about? Why does Jim McClarin look like a midget next to the film subject? How would Bob H walk naturally in a suit that big? Would he not walk like the bundled little brother in the "Christmas Story"? You talk about the burden of physical proof laying with proponents, which is true. But in this case? The burden of proof that the PGF is a hoax? Lies with you......and all I keep hearing is your opinion on the matter. Where is your proof that the PGF is a hoax? They didn't shoot the entire trackway. Roge only shot that short segment on reel #2. The bigfoot tracks were largely cast by Titmus since Roge cast only two. We have nothing of the tracks where it went out of camera range. McClarin mimed the remnants of the trackway which was said to still be somewhat visible. How did the mime walk so well? Actually did the mime walk all than well? During the turn sequence the mime slams leg down rather ungracefully. But I think the answer of how the thing walked as well as it did goes along with young fit strong fella in it. How did the Wallace crew strap on stompers and get towed behind a pickup truck down Blue Creek Mt Rd? it happened. The same guy a few decades later couldn't do it again almost injured himself. But then Bob H got into a Morris suit which was not exactly featherweight and walked pretty well at Cow Camp. Well as for the hoax nature of the film there are still a number of fatal details and I don't think they are things Bill Munns dealt with. Now they are readily observable yet the chorus of artifact and not reliable imaging will scream loud and clear because bigfooters move and swap the goalposts at will. But I'll get up a rather recent detail that when I saw it looked worse than ever. But when it's posted I'll dare any footer to show a real live animal exhibiting the same thing. It won't happen. Stay tuned. Who cares? If the costume trackway went first and the mega stompers second? Your still dealing with two trackways in the trackway footage. And John Green a month later is as well. I dont care what you are proposing off in the bushes somewhere. I'm dealing with the area that Patty walked thru during the film as confirmed by John Green/Jim McClarin's comparison. The sticks and logs line up pretty darn good. I look forward to any evidence you may have concerning the PGF. And getting towed behind a pickup works GREAT on roads.......The PGF wasnt on a road. So how was the stride length accomplished? Stilts? Sorry but it gets to the point in which the impossible (large ape man roaming the PNW) seems to be the easiest most likely explanation. Bob H is a strong young guy in that time frame.....SO WHAT! He doesnt fit the suit. Jim McClarin is 6'6" tall.........look at the comparison, Patty dwarfs him in bulk. Look at her calf, thigh, waist, torso. If you tell me its Andre the giant in the suit? Its more believable.....
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